Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

[newbie]

Anyway Basildon went Labour

fwiw I just looked it up. Labour 1974, Conservative 1979-97, NL 1997-2010, Conservative since (with a boundary change).

 

[smokedout]

You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.

I think Remain becoming seen as an anti-racist vote probably played well for it in London. In fact the more I think of it the fact the public debate was so dominated by immigration, along with Leave being so associated with Farage/UKIP, probably most benefitted Remain. How many people said, even on here that they just couldn't stand to vote with Farage and Boris - that will have been a factor in London and other big urban centres.

If the referendum had been fought on a more broad range of issues then I suspect Remain would have been even more fucked. I wonder if they knew this, that they couldn't win from the right on immigration beyond a few dog whistles, but they might win by keeping the campaign focussed on immigration and presenting Leave as a racist vote.

 

[Anju]

In other EU countries it's the EU who are determining the level if cuts. Portugal is about to be fined for not delivering on its deficit , you may or may not remember the case of Greece? Whether it's the EU or the national government surely the point is to resist or to build some resilience rather than thinking leave it remain is the solution ?

I still don't see that as being thw fault of the EU regarding our situation.

Yes what happened / is happening in Greece is terrible. It is nice to see someone at least considering that the government and elites of Greece should take some responsibility.. I remember Greeks being the original oligarchs / billionaire super yacht owning world travelers. The government were terribly corrupt. Business tax inspectors would demand money and just keep it or maybe hand over a portion to the government. Many people seem to only blame the EU.

We have a very efficient tax system. Why not the same for business. Uber (google) takes its share direct from drivers payments. Our tax system should be doing the same. Take more tax from business and highest earners. Make businesses pay decent wages to stop the need for in work benefits. These are all things that the EU has no impact on but could improve lives here.

I just can't blame the EU for our problems. If we had remained at least we had some influence and some of our money would go to helping poorer countries. Some of which saw us as a positive force within the EU.

 

[Anju]

Of course it won't be effective. The pipe dreams of people who've worked out how to create Facebook events.

Same attitude of those who don't bother trying to do anything.

 

[Pickman's model]

Same attitude of those who don't bother trying to do anything.

Yes something must be done

 

[Pickman's model]

I still don't see that as being thw fault of the EU regarding our situation.

Yes what happened / is happening in Greece is terrible. It is nice to see someone at least considering that the government and elites of Greece should take some responsibility.. I remember Greeks being the original oligarchs / billionaire super yacht owning world travelers. The government were terribly corrupt. Business tax inspectors would demand money and just keep it or maybe hand over a portion to the government. Many people seem to only blame the EU.

We have a very efficient tax system. Why not the same for business. Uber (google) takes its share direct from drivers payments. Our tax system should be doing the same. Take more tax from business and highest earners. Make businesses pay decent wages to stop the need for in work benefits. These are all things that the EU has no impact on but could improve lives here.

I just can't blame the EU for our problems. If we had remained at least we had some influence and some of our money would go to helping poorer countries. Some of which saw us as a positive force within the EU.

You haven't been following events in Greece over the past decade, have you

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Same attitude of those who don't bother trying to do anything.

Which doesn't include me.

 

[Anju]

You haven't been following events in Greece over the past decade, have you

Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece. Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis. The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done? If you were advising them what would your advice have been.

 

[Anju]

Which doesn't include me.

Cool, what have you done?

 

[Anju]

Yes something must be done

I don't really know what those faces mean, apart from the normal smiley one.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece. Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis. The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done? If you were advising them what would your advice have been.

Greece's bankruptcy is intimately linked to the wider European project and the Euro. Lies were told to enter the euro in the first place, lies that were deliberately ignored by everyone in order to get them in. From that point, they and other Mediterranean countries became prime objects for lenders from Germany and elsewhere.

And if they weren't in the euro, there are many things they could do. The Iceland 'fuck you' option would be on the table, as would a devaluation of the currency, which would have happened anyway before peak crisis could be hit. Greece's failure is very much a failure of the EU in general and the single currency project in particular.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Cool, what have you done?

YouTube?

 

[Casually Red]

Greece's bankruptcy is intimately linked to the wider European project and the Euro. Lies were told to enter the euro in the first place, lies that were deliberately ignored by everyone in order to get them in. From that point, they and other Mediterranean countries became prime objects for lenders from Germany and elsewhere.

And if they weren't in the euro, there are many things they could do. The Iceland 'fuck you' option would be on the table, as would a devaluation of the currency, which would have happened anyway before peak crisis could be hit. Greece's failure is very much a failure of the EU in general and the single currency project in particular.

Same with Ireland . Single currency meant no governmental control over interest rates, housing bubble went totally out of control. Fuelled by European lenders chucking truck loads of money at a system they knew could never repay, while awarding themselves massive bonuses. Fraud in other words . And then the eu insisting the bond holders must be repaid no matter what . Socialism for the rich, paid for by the poor. Gouged to absolute fuck. It's obscene .

 

[DotCommunist]

'we'll lend you money at intrest to pay of the loans you've had at interest. And cut those fucking social provisions, you can't afford them now cos we own you'

total beggar thy neighbour stuff. It has bad outcomes to do that. Eventually people won't fucking have it any longer

 

[Anju]

Greece's bankruptcy is intimately linked to the wider European project and the Euro. Lies were told to enter the euro in the first place, lies that were deliberately ignored by everyone in order to get them in. From that point, they and other Mediterranean countries became prime objects for lenders from Germany and elsewhere.

And if they weren't in the euro, there are many things they could do. The Iceland 'fuck you' option would be on the table, as would a devaluation of the currency, which would have happened anyway before peak crisis could be hit. Greece's failure is very much a failure of the EU in general and the single currency project in particular.

There is a link with trying to reach targets to comply with targets for the euro but that is not the overriding cause. Greece was doing well in the EU but allowed income inequality to rise for a long time before austerity was forced on them. I never borrowed heavily no matter how many letters offering credit cards and loans I received and a government has a responsibility to act responsibly when managing an economy. Incompetence, greed and corruption led to the weak position Greece found itself in when the world financial system crashed. Greece might be online searching for wonga right now if they had defaulted. Devaluation has negative consequences as well. There was no easy solution and even now people are not certain to what extent the books were cooked, so other EU nations may not have know exactly what they were choosing to ignore.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Same with Ireland . Single currency meant no governmental control over interest rates, housing bubble went totally out of control. Fuelled by European lenders chucking truck loads of money at a system they knew could never repay, while awarding themselves massive bonuses. Fraud in other words . And then the eu insisting the bond holders must be repaid no matter what . Socialism for the rich, paid for by the poor. Gouged to absolute fuck. It's obscene .

Yep. It is obscene, and you're right that we should not forget that certain people have made themselves obscenely rich out of it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is a link with trying to reach targets to comply with targets for the euro but that is not the overriding cause. Greece was doing well in the EU but allowed income inequality to rise for a long time before austerity was forced on them. I never borrowed heavily no matter how many letters offering credit cards and loans I received and a government has a responsibility to act responsibly when managing an economy. Incompetence, greed and corruption led to the weak position Greece found itself in when the world financial system crashed. Greece might be online searching for wonga right now if they had defaulted. Devaluation has negative consequences as well. There was no easy solution and even now people are not certain to what extent the books were cooked, so other EU nations may not have know exactly what they were choosing to ignore.

Devaluation does have negative consequences, yes. Specifically, it makes anything imported more expensive. But anything locally produced should remain more or less the same price relative to your wage. Everyone would feel a bit poorer, but that can be a far lesser evil than what has happened.

If Greece had defaulted outside the euro, who knows what would have happened, but when Iceland refused to cover Icelandic banks' debts, despite, among other things, being treated like a terrorist state by the UK, that marked the start of a thus-far sustained economic recovery. Smaller country, different economy, etc, but that big 'fuck you' worked a treat.

 

[Casually Red]

The whole thing could well be fucked anyway . There's a major chance now that French voters could be emboldened by these results and seek to follow suit. Any accession by Turkey would definitely cause Austria and a few others to call it a day. Sadly the right will be the mechanism in any of those cases . Conversely the growing resentment with remaining in will only further fuel the right too . The wider left need to seriously think about unhitching themselves from any attachment to this neo liberal nightmare. It's the death of them. Syriza definitely aren't an example of encouragement to anyone.

Although I still believe the British political, financial and media classes will connive together to ensure the vote is either ignored or overturned .

 

[chilango]

Guess who sent me this?

We demand a second referendum on the terms of a final deal. Britain decided to leave the EU, but nobody knew what kind of Brexit was on the ballot paper. It’s only right that we’re all given a say.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Guess who sent me this?

Boris Johnson?

 

[chilango]

Boris Johnson?

Fortunately he doesn't have my email address...

 

[Casually Red]

Hitler ?

 

[JimW]

Guess who sent me this?

Donald Tusk?

 

[chilango]

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Someone called Tristram?

 

[chilango]

Someone called Tristram?

It probably was , though it's not their signature at the bottom.

 

[Anju]

Devaluation does have negative consequences, yes. Specifically, it makes anything imported more expensive. But anything locally produced should remain more or less the same price relative to your wage. Everyone would feel a bit poorer, but that can be a far lesser evil than what has happened.

If Greece had defaulted outside the euro, who knows what would have happened, but when Iceland refused to cover Icelandic banks' debts, despite, among other things, being treated like a terrorist state by the UK, that marked the start of a thus-far sustained economic recovery. Smaller country, different economy, etc, but that big 'fuck you' worked a treat.

I do like the fuck off option. I have never had a credit card in my life, just a loan four times in 29 years. I will be building up my credit a few years before retirement and then disappear to a remote bit of Spain with no postal address. Just think it is a bit too risky for a country that can't just leg it.

I can't really comment on devaluation. I don't know enough about the structure of their economy. I know it is mostly services and assume it is pretty tourism heavy. It all gets a bit complicated and uncharted as far as I know.

Certainly agree with you that there were other viable options with potentially more palatable outcomes.

I'm sure that a lot of debt could be wiped out worldwide with no effect on productive economic activity if there was a way to protect pensions and current accounts for business and personal accounts. Trouble is we might find out the whole world has been screwed over and there is no actual money.

 

[Anju]

Guess who sent me this?

L. Lohan?

 

[chilango]

L. Lohan?

Yeah. She's always emailing me.

 

[Pickman's model]

Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece. Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis. The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done? If you were advising them what would your advice have been.

so eviscerating the Greek economy the right thing to do - and I suppose the eu's imposition of a technocratic government in Italy, against any sort of democratic norm, a grand idea too.