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Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

can you source that 60% figure please.
From the Ashcroft polling. There's a thread about it.

It's very clear that there are several very disparate strands within the Leave vote. One of them is a majority among older, financially secure, often Tory-voting people for Leave.
 
From the Ashcroft polling. There's a thread about it.

It's very clear that there are several very disparate strands within the Leave vote. One of them is a majority among older, financially secure, often Tory-voting people for Leave.
Yes. But once again you confuse correlation with causation.
 
You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.

London London London
 
Yes. But once again you confuse correlation with causation.
I didn't put forward any particular hypothesis about the causation for this particular group. However, by one indicator of financial security - owning your home outright, which also of course means an older than average group - Leave won comfortably.

As for butchersapron's question, if this report is correct, nearly one in three households are now owned outright.
 
I didn't put forward any particular hypothesis about the causation for this particular group. However, by one indicator of financial security - owning your home outright, which also of course means an older than average group - Leave won comfortably.

As for butchersapron's question, if this report is correct, nearly one in three households are now owned outright.
It's 33% of owner-occcupiers. Owner-occupiers are 64% of all households. See the latest housing survey.
 
From the Ashcroft polling. There's a thread about it.

It's very clear that there are several very disparate strands within the Leave vote. One of them is a majority among older, financially secure, often Tory-voting people for Leave.
tvm I'll search for it.

I have this pet theory that your post brought to mind, that the same selfish baby boomers who were once called Basildon Man continue to have a disproportionate influence: they demanded and got the destruction of social housing, and pocketed the windfalls, they demanded and got the breakup of the mutuals, they demanded and got lower taxes and worse social provision, they're the bedrock buytoletters and so on. Now, having milked everything they can get they've demanded and got their children out of the EU, presumably because they think there's something in it for them, that they can put in their pockets.

You're right: I'm bitter. They're my generation and I've loathed what they stand for all my adult life. One of the (non-geographic) reasons I'm skeptical about leaving is that they favour it: nothing they do is in the interests of anyone except themselves.
 
Tbh all of this argument seems to me to ignore people on the ground and the effect they had campaigning. Eg one blogger from Kettering aligned with ukip says there they set a target of a 60% out vote and achieved 60.9%. So many of you make it seem the referendum happened in a vacuum without local campaigns.
home of the grassroots Go campaigner phil 'the fred west' hollobone. (we know he's a cunt but lets repeat it. Fred Hollobone is a massive thundercunt)

kettering returned a 60% leave as well
 
This is really the fault of successive governments.
I don't think leaving the EU will help with the housing crisis

Yes, I realise that Anju...but I also admit to voting out of a real sense of desperation that the status quo cannot/must not remain as it is. Even, though I am slightly ashamed, a sneaky malice at the complacencies of the well-heeled. A once in a lifetime chance to precipitate some real change.Where was the EU when we were facing the firesale of the UK? What possible protections where being offered against PFI? The wholesale break-up of the NHS to 'any willing provider', the selling off of woodlands? The rampant monetising of education - where we have created a single tier of universities which offer ludicrous (business) courses to foreign students, while running the vocational sector (the one I benefited from) down to nothing because why do we need to invest in expensive local youth when we can strip the talents and skills of other places (nurses bursaries being just the latest mooted change). Globalisation - a project the EU holds at the heart of its manifesto. Perhaps you have no experience of skilled trades such as welding, joinery, engineering, mechanics, electricians...but I do...and the present pathetic excuse for education was leveraged by the ability to outsource skills from elsewhere. I even asked my local farmer how it would affect him and he told me he has never applied for EU funding, as a largely one man cow operation. I suspect, like many of us, this was a last ditch attempt to be heard. to use dissent and dissolution as a means of projecting an internal rage and misery out into a wider political realm...and the EU became just another barrier to overcome.
 
tvm I'll search for it.

I have this pet theory that your post brought to mind, that the same selfish baby boomers who were once called Basildon Man continue to have a disproportionate influence: they demanded and got the destruction of social housing, and pocketed the windfalls, they demanded and got the breakup of the mutuals, they demanded and got lower taxes and worse social provision, they're the bedrock buytoletters and so on. Now, having milked everything they can get they've demanded and got their children out of the EU, presumably because they think there's something in it for them, that they can put in their pockets.

You're right: I'm bitter. They're my generation and I've loathed what they stand for all my adult life. One of the (non-geographic) reasons I'm skeptical about leaving is that they favour it: nothing they do is in the interests of anyone except themselves.

Well I'm in that demographic that are apparently the victims of the selfishness of 'baby boomers' and yet I don't feel any animosity towards the previous generation at all. Just as I don't feel any animosity towards migrant workers competing for the same jobs as me. Blaming other sections of society for the outcomes of an unfettered market is a mugs game. Don't attack each other; attack the institutions that create these competing groups in the first place.
 
Yes, I realise that Anju...but I also admit to voting out of a real sense of desperation that the status quo cannot/must not remain as it is. Even, though I am slightly ashamed, a sneaky malice at the complacencies of the well-heeled. A once in a lifetime chance to precipitate some real change.Where was the EU when we were facing the firesale of the UK? What possible protections where being offered against PFI? The wholesale break-up of the NHS to 'any willing provider', the selling off of woodlands? The rampant monetising of education - where we have created a single tier of universities which offer ludicrous (business) courses to foreign students, while running the vocational sector (the one I benefited from) down to nothing because why do we need to invest in expensive local youth when we can strip the talents and skills of other places (nurses bursaries being just the latest mooted change). Globalisation - a project the EU holds at the heart of its manifesto. Perhaps you have no experience of skilled trades such as welding, joinery, engineering, mechanics, electricians...but I do...and the present pathetic excuse for education was leveraged by the ability to outsource skills from elsewhere. I even asked my local farmer how it would affect him and he told me he has never applied for EU funding, as a largely one man cow operation. I suspect, like many of us, this was a last ditch attempt to be heard. to use dissent and dissolution as a means of projecting an internal rage and misery out into a wider political realm...and the EU became just another barrier to overcome.

V good post that. Sums up a lot of my feelings .
 
What constitutes a 'housing crisis' LBJ? because just a decade or so ago, we had a 70% home ownership to 30% renting ratio...which rather suggests that in sheer numbers, the home-owners (who benefit from equity raises which often exceed annual salary) are still in the ascendant. Mere numbers does not really do justice to the huge inequalities arising from property owning classes...and the unearned incomes from doing so, against the utter impossibility of ordinary people now competing for security and safety of having a source of shelter. Those who do own a home, in places such as London and Cambridge have infinitely greater advantages (especially with artificially lowered interest) than that minority which are denied a place at the table.
 
tvm I'll search for it.

I have this pet theory that your post brought to mind, that the same selfish baby boomers who were once called Basildon Man continue to have a disproportionate influence: they demanded and got the destruction of social housing, and pocketed the windfalls, they demanded and got the breakup of the mutuals, they demanded and got lower taxes and worse social provision, they're the bedrock buytoletters and so on. Now, having milked everything they can get they've demanded and got their children out of the EU, presumably because they think there's something in it for them, that they can put in their pockets.

You're right: I'm bitter. They're my generation and I've loathed what they stand for all my adult life. One of the (non-geographic) reasons I'm skeptical about leaving is that they favour it: nothing they do is in the interests of anyone except themselves.
Wasn't the Basildon Man theory a key influence on New Labour ?
 
Wasn't the Basildon Man theory a key influence on New Labour ?
Probably, NL won elections. BM are the aspirational embodiment of Thatcherism, now mostly retired I guess (and ~50% female, it's an old term). I've just googled and there's virtually nothing there, which is odd, but from memory they've been around as a baleful influence since first identified for the 1982 election, but it could have been 1979.
 
What constitutes a 'housing crisis' LBJ? because just a decade or so ago, we had a 70% home ownership to 30% renting ratio...which rather suggests that in sheer numbers, the home-owners (who benefit from equity raises which often exceed annual salary) are still in the ascendant. Mere numbers does not really do justice to the huge inequalities arising from property owning classes...and the unearned incomes from doing so, against the utter impossibility of ordinary people now competing for security and safety of having a source of shelter. Those who do own a home, in places such as London and Cambridge have infinitely greater advantages (especially with artificially lowered interest) than that minority which are denied a place at the table.
Not to mention that many homeowners will have knocked together houses formerly divided into flats, thus dislocating several other households
 
Well I'm in that demographic that are apparently the victims of the selfishness of 'baby boomers' and yet I don't feel any animosity towards the previous generation at all. Just as I don't feel any animosity towards migrant workers competing for the same jobs as me. Blaming other sections of society for the outcomes of an unfettered market is a mugs game. Don't attack each other; attack the institutions that create these competing groups in the first place.
well yes, up to a point. Blaming groups of others is never good. but I am of the boomers, and while I may never have voted with Basildon Man I've scoffed the pies same as them.

What institution created BM? They, like me, grew up in post-war settlement social democracy and (unlike me) have taken every opportunity to tear it to bits. I'm not blaming them for their age, I'm blaming them for their politics.
 
I was sent this link by a friend this morning. No idea if it will be effective.



It initially started off as a call for a general strike by EU workers - thankfully they seem to have realised an illegal strike with 2 weeks notice across hundreds of work places is a bad idea. It's a positive goal if politically naive - basically trying to bring online clicktivism in to the real world. Wear a badge, take a picture post, it on social media.

A campaign that calls for protection of Eu workers' in the UK rights (which was a pledge made by the leave campaign, for what that's worth), against racism and protection of worker right generally in an exit deal are good causes to rally around. Question is how do you that effectively?
 
Yes, I realise that Anju...but I also admit to voting out of a real sense of desperation that the status quo cannot/must not remain as it is.

I didn't intend to criticise your vote. What you wrote seemed heartfelt and compassionate.

My concern is that some of the most vulnerable people in our country will suffer. I have a couple of friends who work in early intervention with kids in London. They are already worried about the effects of academies, as they are less keen to report absences, to protect their attendance figures. For some of these kids this is putting them in real danger. They are worried that their funding will be cut if the economy struggles. The kids they deal with are easy to overlook and people see it as not their problem as their kids will never need this type of help. Not an EU issue directly but if leaving causes major economic problems we will see more austerity, with our current government, and cuts will probably be aimed at the least publicly contentious areas of welfare and social services.
 
Probably, NL won elections. BM are the aspirational embodiment of Thatcherism, now mostly retired I guess (and ~50% female, it's an old term). I've just googled and there's virtually nothing there, which is odd, but from memory they've been around as a baleful influence since first identified for the 1982 election, but it could have been 1979.
I seem to recall that it was about aspiration but let's face it aspiration is part of working class culture anyway. We have always had to stand in our own two feet . For me and others it's also about not forgetting where you are from and where you heart and roots are.
Anyway Basildon went Labour and there were two studies which pretty much concluded that Basildon man and loads of money types were a a short lived and overhyped phenomena .
 
I seem to recall that it was about aspiration but let's face it aspiration is part of working class culture anyway. We have always had to stand in our own two feet . For me and others it's also about not forgetting where you are from and where you heart and roots are.
Anyway Basildon went Labour and there were two studies which pretty much concluded that Basildon man and loads of money types were a a short lived and overhyped phenomena .
aspiration at the expense of others was not the w/c culture I grew up in.
 
I didn't intend to criticise your vote. What you wrote seemed heartfelt and compassionate.

My concern is that some of the most vulnerable people in our country will suffer. I have a couple of friends who work in early intervention with kids in London. They are already worried about the effects of academies, as they are less keen to report absences, to protect their attendance figures. For some of these kids this is putting them in real danger. They are worried that their funding will be cut if the economy struggles. The kids they deal with are easy to overlook and people see it as not their problem as their kids will never need this type of help. Not an EU issue directly but if leaving causes major economic problems we will see more austerity, with our current government, and cuts will probably be aimed at the least publicly contentious areas of welfare and social services.
In other EU countries it's the EU who are determining the level if cuts. Portugal is about to be fined for not delivering on its deficit , you may or may not remember the case of Greece? Whether it's the EU or the national government surely the point is to resist or to build some resilience rather than thinking leave it remain is the solution ?
 
It initially started off as a call for a general strike by EU workers - thankfully they seem to have realised an illegal strike with 2 weeks notice across hundreds of work places is a bad idea. It's a positive goal if politically naive - basically trying to bring online clicktivism in to the real world. Wear a badge, take a picture post, it on social media.

A campaign that calls for protection of Eu workers' in the UK rights (which was a pledge made by the leave campaign, for what that's worth), against racism and protection of worker right generally in an exit deal are good causes to rally around. Question is how do you that effectively?

Apparently a letter has been signed by leading leave and remain campaigners calling for the government to make assurances that the rights of EU migrants will be protected. Just looked for it but for some reason I can't find it. This action might help that but yes it could also be meaningless. It is at least positive that people are trying to do what they can.
 
aspiration is part of working class culture anyway
'don't speak like that'
'dress yourself properly, you look like an oik'
'lovely to see you reading so much, I'll send you some dickens'
all nan quotes, and ma is the same. Telephone voice and talking to mates voice. Don't drop your aitches. They'll never take you seriously if you can't look and sound like them. In my recent reading, although I knew it from growing up, theres a sense that in order to be taken seriously you must actually have higher standards than the upper middle. 'I want better for you' is a phrase heard often enough by w/c children ennit.
 
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