Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

[Casually Red]

Creating conspiracies where there are none. Just because some people benefit from this doesn't mean you need a tinfoil hat.

Geldof has long been very close to Blair and Mandelson . There's no getting away from it. He's been their court jester on previous occasions . And just happens to be leading the charge for precisely what they want. A labour leader ousted and a referendum overturned . Sounds a lot less sinister coming from a trendy pop star than a shark in a suit .

 

[The39thStep]

Of course. But marches can provide a great way for political 'newbies' or those not living in active communities to meet and interact with such people and maybe get more involved.

Some of the unpleasant sneering and opprobrium hurled at yesterday's marchers by posters here has been quite depressing to read.

Absolutely , the Countryside Alliance being a prime example of your first sentence.

 

[newbie]

You don't see this vote being divided along social class?

do you see it as only being divided along social class? Clearly it isn't, unless you imagine the class structure of Scotland, Bristol, Belfast, Manchester, Liverpool and Cardiff as being substantially different from other parts of the country. All had a much greater Remain majority than the national majority to Leave. You'll also need to imagine that the class structure of younger, better educated people is very different from their boomer parents.

London is a bit of a special case but even after all the changes of the last couple of decades, there's still a substantial working class population. And a massive majority to stay in: parts of Inner London* had greater majorities to stay than even the sharp end in Lincolnshire voted to leave. People in eg Boston clearly have local considerations that affected their votes, so too must London and other big cities.

Class is a very important aspects of understanding what has happened and is happening, but it's by no means the only aspect.




* including where both the editor and I live, at nearly 79% it's pretty unequivocal what people round here want.

 

[Casually Red]

Declare geldof an undesirable illegal alien and fuck him out .Trying to subvert British democracy and interfere with the workings of the house of commons by whipping up street rabble . He should be interned .

 

[newbie]

We were out last night and none of the people we were with seemed bothered about class. You could definitely describe some of them as being from socially disadvantaged backgrounds.

Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.

I kindof agree, but that's possibly a function of being Londoners. We have to recognise just how different from the rest of the country they think we are.

 

[editor]

A disgrace to academia.

With nothing to back up his claims other than his shock at the masses not voting in the way he wanted them to he states that the result is democracy failing. What a bellend.

Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.

Have you actually read the article you linked to?

 

[Casually Red]

Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.

So his vote is the one that counts .

 

[planetgeli]

EDIT: Did you attend? If so can you answer BA's questions? They seem pretty important to me.

FYI No, I didn't attend. But I reckon narrowing this march down to 'being led by MPs' as a way of belittling genuine ordinary people's opinions is a bit...wrong somewhere. And for BS calling this an 'election'? Since when was a non-binding, advisory referendum the same thing as an election? Sure, as I read somewhere else, custom and practice and the arsery of not having a modern constitution might force a government to act on it in some Ill timed manner but election it wasn't and marching against it, even if David Lammy turns up, is legitimate practice. To question 'where are the labour movement banners? (which may or may not have been there, I dunno) as if this null and voids the whole thing is also a ridiculous argument.

And btw, I've marched behind MPs before and still managed to riot through central London (Poll Tax March). Obviously no extra-parliamentary activity there either.

 

[The39thStep]

do you see it as only being divided along social class? Clearly it isn't, unless you imagine the class structure of Scotland, Bristol, Belfast, Manchester, Liverpool and Cardiff as being substantially different from other parts of the country. All had a much greater Remain majority than the national majority to Leave. You'll also need to imagine that the class structure of younger, better educated people is very different from their boomer parents.

London is a bit of a special case but even after all the changes of the last couple of decades, there's still a substantial working class population. And a massive majority to stay in: parts of Inner London* had greater majorities to stay than even the sharp end in Lincolnshire voted to leave. People in eg Boston clearly have local considerations that affected their votes, so too must London and other big cities.

Class is a very important aspects of understanding what has happened and is happening, but it's by no means the only aspect.




* including where both the editor and I live, at nearly 79% it's pretty unequivocal what people round here want.

In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.

 

[newbie]

In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.

Yes and something similar is mirrored in the way London voted. Class and prosperity are clearly important but that alone cannot account for the voting patterns.

 

[editor]

So his vote is the one that counts .

What? His vote carries no more weight than yours or mine, but he certainly knows a damn sight more about the topic that you or I. What is your criticism of the points he raises?

 

[The39thStep]

My mum was born and bred in Inverness, from a poor family. Her dad was in the army and commited suicide when she was twelve. My grandad on my dads side was a factory worker up north. My parents did a variety of stuff throughout their lives. We were momentarily rich but also at one point lived in two rooms in a derelict flat above a shop. I have no idea what class I am, born in Bury, early childhood in Stafford, London form 13 to now. I like to think I am just classy .

We were out last night and none of the people we were with seemed bothered about class. You could definitely describe some of them as being from socially disadvantaged backgrounds.

Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.

You might want to read most recent British Social Attiudes Survey . What are socially disadvantaged backgrounds btw?

 

[The39thStep]

Yes and something similar is mirrored in the way London voted. Class and prosperity are clearly important but that alone cannot account for the voting patterns.

Let's just say evidence shows it has been the most significant factor. I think it was Dr Mathew Goodwin who also described a key factor as ' those who have done well out of globalisation against those who have not '

 

[newbie]

In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.

are they also the youngest boroughs?

 

[chilango]

Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.

Class isn't (just) a cultural identity. It's your location within an economic system. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not doesn't alter that location, or the consequences that follow from being in that location.

 

[redsquirrel]

FYI No, I didn't attend. But I reckon narrowing this march down to 'being led by MPs' as a way of belittling genuine ordinary people's opinions is a bit...wrong somewhere.

Well it's a good job I didn't say it them isn't it. You've made that quote up, I'll assume it's by mistake rather than deliberate.

 

[Casually Red]

What? His vote carries no more weight than yours or mine, but he certainly knows a damn sight more about the topic that you or I. What is your criticism of the points he raises?

I've already given you my criticisms . He's calling for the vote to be simply ignored because he doesn't like it . And he's an expert in European law , not in what motivates people to vote for their choices . That's the actual topic . People making a choice and him demanding that choice be ignored because it's the wrong one .
If he succeeds in getting what he wants then his vote does actually carry more weight than mine, despite him losing .

I'm not sure you've actually read that article or digested it . He's certainly not giving any expert advice despite his degree.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What is your criticism of the points he raises?

“Around half the country is going to feel like democracy has let them down and that’s a sad and really quite troubling outcome.”

Endorsing calls for the Government to ignore the referendum result, Mr Dougan said there is a “constitutional responsibility to protect the national interest”, with Parliament the ultimate decision-maker on whether the UK actually leaves the European Union.

ffs

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

He's upset cos a Professor of European Law's standing will be diminished by the country not being in the EU. Just another self-serving, whinge-bag.

 

[The39thStep]

are they also the youngest boroughs?

No don't think so. Stockport has a high elderly population . I seem to recall Oldham had quite a high youth population

 

[Casually Red]

He's upset cos a Professor of European Law's standing will be diminished by the country not being in the EU. Just another self-serving, whinge-bag.

Nobodyll want to take his classes any more . He'd be better off teaching bee keeping or something . He should have took up a trade instead .

 

[newbie]

Let's just say evidence shows it has been the most significant factor.

what evidence?

I think it was Dr Mathew Goodwin who also described a key factor as ' those who have done well out of globalisation against those who have not '

and that's a reasonable interpretation, if somewhat glib. I presume academics and political scientists are trying to establish the differences in the effect of globalisation between the cities (outside special case London) I mentioned and other similar cities, why there is a stark line along the Scottish/English border and why the rich SouthEast/Home Counties voted to leave.

 

[TopCat]

Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.

Let the technocrats rule.

 

[butchersapron]

He's upset cos a Professor of European Law's standing will be diminished by the country not being in the EU. Just another self-serving, whinge-bag.

Jean Monnet is widely seen as the principal architect of the various incarnations of the current EU. This prof is holder of the Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's an EU funded chair. So, his wages (or a hefty part of them) come directly from the EU.

The Jean Monnet program btw is a massive tax-payer funded EU proganda initiative. It itself is part of a much wider tax-payer funded half billion pound pro-eu propaganda program.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Jean Monnet is widely seen as the arhcitect of the carious incarnations of the current EU. This prof is holder of the Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's an EU funded chair. So, his wages (or a hefty part of them) come directly from the EU.

The Jean Monnet program btw is a massive tax-payer funded EU proganda initiative. It itself is part of a much wider tax-payer funded half billion pound pro-eu propaganda program.

Well take a feather and knock me down with it.

 

[ska invita]

Havent read the last few pages properly but I saw BAs question and the fact there were likely few/no TU banners isnt surprising as it was called by that well-known agent of the workers struggle Secret £30 a ticket Cinema. I think Left UNity might have been there though Dont quote me on that...

But the stuff about LibDems and Lammy etc and calling for Corbyn to go etc is blatantly out of order and I would like to take back all previous comments in support for this march and the London yuppie bastards who went on it!

Let's just say evidence shows it has been the most significant factor. I think it was Dr Mathew Goodwin who also described a key factor as ' those who have done well out of globalisation against those who have not '

Nowhere near that simple because many of the wealthy in boroughs like Bromely, Croydon, Twickenahm, Barnes (are they boroughs?) voted leave.

Seriously though, one of the things that we can say about the referendum is that there is a kaleidoscopic cross section of views and reasons for voting, and it cant be broken down into a one sentence class analysis.... there are probably about a dozen voting 'tribes' I could think of, and class may well be a component on those subtribes, but it doesnt allow for any generalisations across the whole population.

There will no doubt have been people on that march who support Corbyn for example who would have foudn themselves wondering what it was they had in common with others around them....The Leave Remain 'camps' are weird coalitions....

It's amazing how intelligent and highly educated middle class people are incapable of telling the difference between Europe the continent with its collection of countries and an undemocratic, exploitative, racist, neoliberal superstate.

TBF to these geniuses I didnt hear that neoliberal argument made anywhere but here on urban and some left fringe literature, which most people will have been totally unaware of. There really wasnt a Lexit argument going on out there in the real world. The result and reaction has to be understood within the campaign as it happened... and theres a worthwhile job for those who want it to try and explain why Lexit could be a good thing to those who have yet to hear the case...I'm trying to do that with friends who havent heard it

 

[magneze]

Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.

... and yet in the widely circulated video of his appraisal of what would happen in the event of Brexit he questioned whether the lack of a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland would change (ie: that a border might need to be erected) and how that would affect the peace process. This is despite the lack of a border being nothing to do with the EU at all. It's a separate arrangement, called the Common Travel Area.

Either he knew this and was misleading or he didn't and needs to read up a bit.

 

[editor]

Let the technocrats rule.

I don't recall asking for him to 'rule,' but I guess I'll just give up asking for an intelligent and informed critique of his comments.

 

[Casually Red]

it was called by that well-known agent of the workers struggle Secret £30 a ticket Cinema.

75 quid a ticket for their star wars thing . While constantly trying to flog you additional stuff during it . A history of not paying their actors too , opportunity to put the experience on your cv, although they say they don't do that any more .