Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

[DotCommunist]

what evidence?

and that's a reasonable interpretation, if somewhat glib. I presume academics and political scientists are trying to establish the differences in the effect of globalisation between the cities (outside special case London) I mentioned and other similar cities, why there is a stark line along the Scottish/English border and why the rich SouthEast/Home Counties voted to leave.

one scottish factor to remember is they have always been closer to europe, not geographically obvs but in terms of auld allaince and so on. Whereas england has historically not been gr8 m8ts with france. Its one factor I'm considering as interesting anyway

There really wasnt a Lexit argument going on out there in the real world.

absolutel. The right/right argument was all we were allowed to hear

 

[Casually Red]

Let the technocrats rule.

They do pretty much . Jean Claude Junckers previous gig was running Luxembourg . Basically just a glorified tax haven . Mario Dragi was a CEO at Goldman Sachs before heading up the European bank . that EU funded lecturer is just a mouthpiece for them .

 

[magneze]

Can anyone confirm what i read elsewhere that there were no labour movement banners and that there was a demand that Corbyn resign made from the platform, and if so, who made it?

I saw no labour movement banners. I didn't hear anything from the platform.

It was billed as a march for Europe which potentially could have been something that brought everyone together. However, the mood seemed largely in favour of overturning the result. What was very interesting was that most people seemed to directly equate Europe and the EU, as if the result of the vote is that the UK will leave Europe. If there is a way of bringing more people around to the result of the referendum then challenging the assumption that EU=Europe is pretty key IMO.

 

[Casually Red]

This is just mind boggling . Ian paisley jnr , who campaigned for Brexit, is advising his constituents to apply for Irish passports . And happily signing people's ID photos.

After Brexit, unionist Ian Paisley Jr is urging Northern Irish to apply for Republic of Ireland passports

His statement that the union is safe is far from convincing . Then again he's a fucking clown .

 

[Anju]

I was sent this link by a friend this morning. No idea if it will be effective.

 

[campanula]

Within the remain majority Cambridge bubble, I confess, as a slightly furtive leaver (shy Tory syndrome in reverse), that one salient factoid/soundbite resonated for me more than anything else - the threat to house prices. This slow catastrophe has been unfolding for 20 years or so in Cambridge - just about the time of the 'Science Park' development...where we have witnessed an obscene disparity between property owners (particularly those who bought before the 80s) and everyone else - students, renters and, most distressingly, the vile ongoing disenfranchisement of homeless people. Everywhere in Cambridge, we see pubs closing and 16 apartments being built on the site. Academics of my aquaintance, while proudly declaring their leftish credentials, have rushed into the BTL market while estate agents such as Savilles don't even bother advertising locally anymore, relying on the Chinese investment market to buy these shabby, badly built (I know of what I speak here) 'bijoux' apartments and the main scam, 'student accommodation'...while an entire generation of young people are absolutely locked out of an insanely overheated property con.
Not just an economic/class argument - having a home is at the heart of our sense of self, our identity, our security, our community...and this is currently denied - none of my son's peers have been able to leave the parental home...unless they are prepared to spend 2/3rds of their wages...and if not working within the tech/Microsoft/Astra Zenica bubble, they face even greater privations since most estate agents have become venal, moneygrubbing profit whores demanding several hundred pounds to simply process references...not to mention the thousands of £££ required upfront for deposits etc. More alarmingly, the power imbalance between renters and landlords has shifted and we are seeing the rise of the slumlord, short term lettings and a total refusal to honour the landlord's contract on safety etc.
Most of my working life was spent as a homeless support worker (have been there myself) - I am still astonished at the absolute failure to address this issue (not to mention the various attempts at selling the last rump of council stock).

 

[smokedout]

* including where both the editor and I live, at nearly 79% it's pretty unequivocal what people round here want.

I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically. I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave. There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market.

* perhaps it's more accurate to say an income divide, I'd guess lots of traditional skilled working class in London voted Remain, whilst those were unemployed, or in minimum wage work, voted out. Of course there were other factors, golf club Ukippers for example, but its quite astonishing just how precisely income seems to have determined which way people voted, or at least that's what the regional voting patterns everywhere seem to show (except Scotland/NI where other issues are strongly at play)

 

[The39thStep]

what evidence?

and that's a reasonable interpretation, if somewhat glib. I presume academics and political scientists are trying to establish the differences in the effect of globalisation between the cities (outside special case London) I mentioned and other similar cities, why there is a stark line along the Scottish/English border and why the rich SouthEast/Home Counties voted to leave.

I know you have been on holiday but I and others have posted quite a lot on demographics of voting and analysis of the class nature of the vote.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was sent this link by a friend this morning. No idea if it will be effective.

No, it won't be.

 

[JTG]

In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.

The ward by ward breakdown of Bristol shows the wealthier, more bohemian central areas voting heavily Remain with the outer estates and suburbs voting Leave. Swathes of south Bristol (heavily working class, traditionally the poorest sector of the city and solidly Labour since forever) were Leave. The ward I grew up in (Avonmouth and Lawrence Weston) was nearly 60-40 Leave iirc. Again, traditionally working class, very white, forever on the periphery of the city geographically, culturally and economically.

Predictably, I have seen plenty of disparaging comments from inner Bristol dwellers about Lawrence Weston, Fishponds,, Hartcliffe, Knowle West etc and how they voted.

South Gloucestershire, which contains much of the north and east Bristol suburbs which are also in part trad white working class (Filton, Kingswood, Staple Hill, Yate etc) voted to Leave. Not seen breakdowns of the vote so not sure how they split when compared to the rural parts of the authority.

It illustrates much of what I've been saying for some time about Bristol and the gaping divide between trendy, funky, liberal, gentrified inner Bristol and the outer areas full of Bristolians who feel pushed out of the picture economically and socially

 

[Wilf]

Rather than throwing in an unfounded link with Blair, what is your criticism of his actual findings?

There were industrial amounts of shit and dishonesty launched by both sides in the referendum - it was, after all, led by politicians. That doesn't matter. The real issue is why did 17 million people feel so sickened by our political class that they ended up voting leave?

 

[Wilf]

What? His vote carries no more weight than yours or mine, but he certainly knows a damn sight more about the topic that you or I. What is your criticism of the points he raises?

That depends what you think 'the topic' is.

 

[newbie]

one scottish factor to remember is they have always been closer to europe, not geographically obvs but in terms of auld allaince and so on. Whereas england has historically not been gr8 m8ts with france. Its one factor I'm considering as interesting anyway

that goes to support my contention that to pretend that class was the only factor involved is too simplistic.

 

[The39thStep]

Havent read the last few pages properly but I saw BAs question and the fact there were likely few/no TU banners isnt surprising as it was called by that well-known agent of the workers struggle Secret £30 a ticket Cinema. I think Left UNity might have been there though Dont quote me on that...

But the stuff about LibDems and Lammy etc and calling for Corbyn to go etc is blatantly out of order and I would like to take back all previous comments in support for this march and the London yuppie bastards who went on it!


Nowhere near that simple because many of the wealthy in boroughs like Bromely, Croydon, Twickenahm, Barnes (are they boroughs?) voted leave.

Seriously though, one of the things that we can say about the referendum is that there is a kaleidoscopic cross section of views and reasons for voting, and it cant be broken down into a one sentence class analysis.... there are probably about a dozen voting 'tribes' I could think of, and class may well be a component on those subtribes, but it doesnt allow for any generalisations across the whole population.

There will no doubt have been people on that march who support Corbyn for example who would have foudn themselves wondering what it was they had in common with others around them....The Leave Remain 'camps' are weird coalitions....

TBF to these geniuses I didnt hear that neoliberal argument made anywhere but here on urban and some left fringe literature, which most people will have been totally unaware of. There really wasnt a Lexit argument going on out there in the real world. The result and reaction has to be understood within the campaign as it happened... and theres a worthwhile job for those who want it to try and explain why Lexit could be a good thing to those who have yet to hear the case...I'm trying to do that with friends who havent heard it

Cant believe that Remainers are disputing where the working class votes went in the referendum . It's almost like being in denial . Class wasn't just a component of voting sub tribes in a kaleidoscope cross section of views. It stands out a mile and as does the fact that immigration was a key issue to many. There wouldn't have been the attempted coup in the Labour Party immediately after the referendum if labour had won the vote to stay amongst the working class. as for the London suburbs you mentioned do you think they wouldn't have been Leave without the working class vote?

 

[cuppa tee]

Class is a very important aspects of understanding what has happened and is happening, but it's by no means the only aspect.




* including where both the editor and I live, at nearly 79% it's pretty unequivocal what people round here want.

I have also been giving this some thought and wonder how much gentrification contributed to the result here
.....right to buy,the homogenisation of private renting, rising property prices and untold luxury housing developments have changed this bit of Brixton massively in just the last couple of years.

 

[newbie]

I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically. I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave. There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market.

* perhaps it's more accurate to say an income divide, I'd guess lots of traditional skilled working class in London voted Remain, whilst those were unemployed, or in minimum wage work, voted out. Of course there were other factors, golf club Ukippers for example, but its quite astonishing just how precisely income seems to have determined which way people voted, or at least that's what the regional voting patterns everywhere seem to show (except Scotland/NI where other issues are strongly at play)

In general that's not quite my anecdata experience but it's not too far off, but the bolded bit rings true. I think housing is massively important too, as campanula said.

 

[newbie]

I know you have been on holiday but I and others have posted quite a lot on demographics of voting and analysis of the class nature of the vote.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating stuff that's already been said. Can you point me to it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically. I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave. There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market.

You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.

 

[editor]

There were industrial amounts of shit and dishonesty launched by both sides in the referendum - it was, after all, led by politicians. That doesn't matter. The real issue is why did 17 million people feel so sickened by our political class that they ended up voting leave?

That is indeed the crux of the issue.

 

[editor]

I was sent this link by a friend this morning. No idea if it will be effective.

There's an action in Brixton too

Oh, the link is borking. It's here www.facebook.com/events/863594877086305/

 

[Anju]

- I am still astonished at the absolute failure to address this issue (not to mention the various attempts at selling the last rump of council stock).

This is really the fault of successive governments. I hate what has been done to social housing. In an ideal world it would be a choice as to whether people wanted the lower cost of social housing or to buy somewhere. I know this will probably never happen but I would like to see all new builds in the UK to be 75% social housing, 25% affordable. Builders, suppliers, architects, furniture sellers, basically all the people that get paid and/or employ people still get paid. Social housing stock would increase and the only people to lose out would be the delepers shareholders.

I would also like laws and taxes to prevent places being left empty. Maybe any unoccupied oproperty charged 400% council tax and after one year it would be used as temporary accommodation.

I don't think leaving the EU will help with the housing crisis

 

[Wilf]

That is indeed the crux of the issue.

“But really I’m more fearful that many of the people who voted Leave genuinely believing they were going to get the things they’d been falsely promised are only going to end up feeling more disenfranchised, more marginalised, more angry.

I think he gets this the wrong way round. People voted leave because they already feel marginalised and disenfranchised.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not sure how much of a factor the housing crisis was, tbh. The places with the most acute housing crises voted remain, generally, including many of those at the sharp end of the crisis, paying massive private rents. And those who own their homes outright, and so have no direct connection to the crisis at all, as a group voted around 60% Leave.

 

[Anju]

There's an action in Brixton too

Oh, the link is borking. It's here www.facebook.com/events/863594877086305/

Thanks.

Good idea as not everyone will actually be at their workplace on a Monday in a 24/7/365 city.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbh all of this argument seems to me to ignore people on the ground and the effect they had campaigning. Eg one blogger from Kettering aligned with ukip says there they set a target of a 60% out vote and achieved 60.9%. So many of you make it seem the referendum happened in a vacuum without local campaigns.

 

[Pickman's model]

Was It Boris Wot Won It?

 

[magneze]

You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.

62% turnout though. Is there an analysis of who voted?

 

[newbie]

Cant believe that Remainers are disputing where the working class votes went in the referendum . It's almost like being in denial . Class wasn't just a component of voting sub tribes in a kaleidoscope cross section of views. It stands out a mile and as does the fact that immigration was a key issue to many. There wouldn't have been the attempted coup in the Labour Party immediately after the referendum if labour had won the vote to stay amongst the working class. as for the London suburbs you mentioned do you think they wouldn't have been Leave without the working class vote?

it stands out a mile until you consider the age and multi-ethnicity distribution. Can you pinpoint a class difference between older and younger populations? There's an educational attainment difference but that's not the same as economic class, is it? If you can't, then class cannot be the only explaining factor, and attempting to understand what's happened is more than just denial.

I agree that immigration was a key issue, and it's pretty plain that the most multi-ethnic areas voted Remain. The argument I'm hearing around here is that people outside the inner cities are afraid whereas those that live with the effects most intimately are not. I don't personally think that really holds up, but it's part of how inner London appears to see things differently from elsewhere.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

62% turnout though. Is there an analysis of who voted?

About the same as Sunderland, then, the leave vote announced early that surprised most.

I'll be surprised if there isn't a negative correlation between likelihood to vote and income. However, those who did not vote also did not vote leave. The point about it not resonating in anything like the same way still stands I think.

 

[newbie]

Not sure how much of a factor the housing crisis was, tbh. The places with the most acute housing crises voted remain, generally, including many of those at the sharp end of the crisis, paying massive private rents. And those who own their homes outright, and so have no direct connection to the crisis at all, as a group voted around 60% Leave.

can you source that 60% figure please.