Racist Jamboree, Y'all Come Down!
- Thread starter rachamim18
- Start date
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
and i'm a dreary fuckwit
Most certainly so.
Why are you posting on this thread btw?
ETA> Never mind. I see you've been banned for acting the arsehole on another thread. Tiresome trout.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not really Granny. I've been reading these boards for the best part of 7 years now and am not about to trawl past threads to satiate your lust for "proof".
Rachamim regularly wipes the floor with the biggoted Spion and eats Nino's lunch every time they lock horns. As a result they and other posters resort to inaccurate anti-Israeli bullshit, fury and ad hominems which are so conspicuously absent from Rachamims style that a neutral observer can't help but find him engaging.
The above is my opinion based on years of reading the rucks. You may not agree but please don't ask me for proof or quotes.
Dude, you know the score: You make the claims, you have to provide the evidence. It's virtually the "Law of Urban".
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Dude, you know the score: You make the claims, you have to provide the evidence. It's virtually the "Law of Urban".
Hello old chap
.I'm really not going to get into it VP. We've all been down that road a thousand times and nothing is ever agreed. It'll end up in a bunfight over the definition of "racism", someone'll say "the Jews are not a race" someone else'll bang on about zionism, murderers etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. It's why I stay out of these rows.
I only popped in to encourage Rachamim in his style, which always remains dignified in the face of overwhelming aggression from the majority of posters and graces his contributions with a credibility so totally lacking in the hateful rantings of Spion et al.
If it helps prevent a row I hereby withdraw the word "racist" from the post in question and substitute "bigoted".
Now. I'll leave you to it.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Excuse me while I burst into laughter. "Eats my lunch"? Wtf is that supposed to mean?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Wtf is that supposed to mean?
It means he kicks your arse, as does JC2 on a regular basis. I'm surprised you don't quit mixing it with them as both make you look foolish.
However, It's reasonably entertaining!
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
SM I have utter respect for you-I really do. But this post is utter shit mate-it really is.
As for reading this forum for 7 years (I'm assuming you mean this forum since the subject is about the racist diatribe against poor rach) then you'd know he hasn't been posting that long PLUS you'd also know from reading this forum he has consistently evaded providing evidence when pressed. Made up ad homs to deflect from providing evidence. Misquotes people (deliberate or not). In addition he's also voiced opinion against mixed relationships in statements not too dissimilar to the BNP and their views on mixed race relationships.
You really need to poke that shitty stick in another direction mate and it isn't against the forum users that take issue with Rach.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Take note.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
But this post is utter shit mate-it really is.
You think so Granny?
I don't. Take a look at the "Bulldozer" thread and compare and contrast styles. Nino hates Israel so much that he's more concerned about the extra-judicial shooting of the murdering shit driving the 'dozer than the victims FFS! Rachamim is clearly the occupant of the moral high ground yet Nino's takes an astonishingly stupid line (even by his piss-poor standards) just because it's contrary to what Rach says
. Fucking ludicrous! Rach's style is to take individual points and deal with them, whereas Nino's is to shout "liar liar pants on fire" then disengage indignantly when made to look an arse. He's the Tobyjug of P&P
.
Nino to PK (after being pwned) said:
(my emphasis)Nino to Rach said:
My point really is that Rachamim's style is so much better than his detractors' that a NEUTRAL observer finds him far more credible.
I've been posting here for 7 years and discussion of the middle east was going on way before I arrived. I've been around for longer than Rachamim, yes, but I'm not sure what your point is here?
Oh come on! He does it far less than most here. He's far more often the victim of the personal attack than the perp!
If those are his views he should be able to air them and get soundly spanked on those threads. Not this one.
The thing is Granny, as I said in a previous post, I believe the situation in the M.E. to be wholly intractible. It's going to be a problem, certainly through our lifetimes and probably through our childrens. The issue is far too polarised with the primary protagonists on each side holding views too extreme to enable any meaningful discourse and that's exactly what happens here!
Attempts to shut down Rachamim or suggestions that he should not be able to post here are utterly absurd. What do you lot want, a forum where every poster agrees with everything you say? It seems that way because if you genuinely wanted to see both aspects, posters like Rachamim should be welcomed. He is clearly well-read, passionate and unfailingly polite. He argues the Zionist viewpoint expertly (whatever you think of it) and that's what get up peoples noses, that he argues better than they do!
Now if such posters are going to be run out of town because the majority disagree it'll be a sad day for these boards.
Surely the point of discussing these issues is to attempt to move disparate sides closer to agreement? To change the way people think? The only people that buy Spion's gangs' line are those that already agree with it. Do you really think they've changed anyones minds beyond alienating some with obvious propoganda and rhetoric?
Arseholes like these do the Palestinian cause no good whatsoever, especially when they come up against brighter sparks like Rachamim and get demolished.
I for one have learnt an awful lot from Rachamim's contributions. I don't agree with a lot of the views expressed but at least I'm aware of them and the thinking behind them.
I like you too Granny but you've allied to the wrong posters. You should unhitch from their bandwagon since all anyone can have learnt from the likes of Spion and Ninojug is that some peoples blinkered hatred is so all-consuming that they lose the ability of reasoned argument supported by rational research.
Come on, you're better than that.
Nino: "Separate devlopment exists between the so called "WB" and Israel Proper.": Well Nino, as Israel is only in the "WB" for an interim period it is not supposed to "Develop" it as it would its onw land. That is ridiculous. I can say this though, the first thing Israel did upon winning the so called "WB" from Jordan was drill new wells in virtually every single population center there (Gaza as well).
Then it workd on schools and other vital facets of infrastructure. Jordan which had actually annexed the land had done nothing aside form constructing several military bases.
All you have to do is examine things like Israel's recetntly turning over an IDF base to the PA for construction of a "model city." Israel does far more for the "WB" than the PA will ever do.
Spy: Thank you for the kind words.
For gernal information, the accusatiuon that I am against mixed relationships is quite misleading. Aside from having 4 black Jewish (biological by the way, 1 deceased, their mom is a Jew from Yemen) children, I have a daughter with a Mexican woman and a son with a Puerto Rican. My wife, a convert to Judiasim, is Filipina (Visayan to be exact) so it is utterly non-sensical. IF however, you mean that I am against "Jewish with Non-Jewish," that is due to my religion and to my belief (it is a fact) that intermarriage leads to assimilation.
I have said this a few times but obviously need to repeat myself. In the States intermariage is approaching 60%. Of those marrages the children more often than not are NOT raised Jewish. So, not only does the faith become an issue but Jewish Culture is also adversely effected. In the former USSR intermarrage approaches 80%. Should I go on?
When one makes the statement that "Rach is opposed to mixed marriages" it leads people to imagine it is a racist sentiment that drives this. I am a Jew. I am also Israeli. I am able to view firsthand the danger of assimilation and the issue at large. Look to the Samritans. They once almost outnumbered Jews and now there are about 1100 in the entire world. Look at Assyrians. Look further afield to Yazidi...or many other vanishing ethnicities. It has nothing to do with "race" and everything to do with trying to preseve my heritage and obey the dictums of my faith.
I have no idea what the "BNP" is but suspect it s a racist organisation given the context. I take umbrage at this.
Then it workd on schools and other vital facets of infrastructure. Jordan which had actually annexed the land had done nothing aside form constructing several military bases.
All you have to do is examine things like Israel's recetntly turning over an IDF base to the PA for construction of a "model city." Israel does far more for the "WB" than the PA will ever do.
Spy: Thank you for the kind words.
For gernal information, the accusatiuon that I am against mixed relationships is quite misleading. Aside from having 4 black Jewish (biological by the way, 1 deceased, their mom is a Jew from Yemen) children, I have a daughter with a Mexican woman and a son with a Puerto Rican. My wife, a convert to Judiasim, is Filipina (Visayan to be exact) so it is utterly non-sensical. IF however, you mean that I am against "Jewish with Non-Jewish," that is due to my religion and to my belief (it is a fact) that intermarriage leads to assimilation.
I have said this a few times but obviously need to repeat myself. In the States intermariage is approaching 60%. Of those marrages the children more often than not are NOT raised Jewish. So, not only does the faith become an issue but Jewish Culture is also adversely effected. In the former USSR intermarrage approaches 80%. Should I go on?
When one makes the statement that "Rach is opposed to mixed marriages" it leads people to imagine it is a racist sentiment that drives this. I am a Jew. I am also Israeli. I am able to view firsthand the danger of assimilation and the issue at large. Look to the Samritans. They once almost outnumbered Jews and now there are about 1100 in the entire world. Look at Assyrians. Look further afield to Yazidi...or many other vanishing ethnicities. It has nothing to do with "race" and everything to do with trying to preseve my heritage and obey the dictums of my faith.
I have no idea what the "BNP" is but suspect it s a racist organisation given the context. I take umbrage at this.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
I know so.
I asked you for proof that Rach was subject to racist diatribe. You said:
Well rach hasn't been posting for 7 years.
You've misread my post. I said he makes up ad homs. Which he does...and quite often too.
He has on numerous occasions.
Not one person is suggesting that this is what people want from the ME forum. What the overwhelming majority want though is robust debate-honest and open. Not half measures where people promise evidence then backtrack on providing that evidence. Thats not a lot to ask is it? I think labelling Nino Tobyjug is absurd.....clearly Rach is tobyjug...and I claim my fiver.
Oh I'd disagree with that and I'm sure posters who have seen the nasty side of Rach would be inclined to disagree with this statement.
Its not about sides mate-and I haven't allied myself to anyone. All I want is open and honest debate and Rach struggles to get anywhere near that. If you've read his contributions for so long you'd know that.
Just to fill you in can I suggest you read anyone of the two Tutu threads for shall we say a more fuller picture.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Sure, but the evidential standards required of Rach are always far greater than those provided by his opponents. He backs up most of his substantive points with argument that is no less supported by evidence than most of the shit that Spion ejaculates on a regular basis!
Also posters will often ditch the substantive point being made when they're losing the argument with him, pick up on some other minor point, demand evidence of that and consider themselves victorious when it's not forthcoming. That's dellusional.
With respect you're kind of doing it with me now on the issuue of how long Rachamim and I have been posting. It's a complete red herring but you are forgiven
. I certainly don't agree with Rachamim's position regarding "mixed marriage", this to me sounds like overly insular, religious balls .......
..... but I'll debate him on this subject seperately if need be.Rachamim said:
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Not sure how you can come to that conclusion? Most posters will substantiate their claims with evidence (particularly when asked)-Rach rarely posts evidence full stop-and during any debate its critically important that claims are substantiated otherwise your rhetoric becomes nothing but one long slew of propaganda. This is more than evidenced by the style of his posts. Long winded posts often superfluous to the points being made and in the majority of cases devoid of any evidence. This is the style of Tobyjug and he was was particularly slated by Urbanites-yourself included SM. I fail to see why you seem to be overlooking this.
Humour me and try this for size... you take a look at the last 30 posts made by Spion and compare that to the last 30 posts made by rach in this very forum. Spion more often that not argues the point clearly and precisely and more importantly backs up what he's saying/claiming. The same cannot be said of Rach
Is that any different to:
Making several claims.
Promising to provide the evidence for 18 months.
Then making up an ad hom to deflect from providing the evidence?
With respect you're kind of doing it with me now on the issuue of how long Rachamim and I have been posting. It's a complete red herring but you are forgiven
It was never intended to be a red herring-merely a correction.
Hows fong BTW?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Grandma Death said:
Ok, I'll have a look, but reading Spions bollocks gives me the shits.
Grandma Death said:
Well no, it's not that different is it? So we're agreeing that Rachamim's behaviour regarding the furnishing of evidence is actually no different to anyone elses.
Granny: Sorry, but I have to remind you that indeed more than a couple of posters (you included in fact) have asked to have me banned . You actually iniated a thread on it not too long ago. Panda actually mentioned aanother thread to that effect as well as a couple of other posters who have done so. I find it curious that your mind is so selective but that is neither here nor there.
I will not respond (and this feed into) your other insults but I did want at least that to be accurate.
Far be it from me to disparage another poster to try and make myself more acceptable to you or anyone else but I really have to take issue when you compare me to Spion in terms of veracity, etc. Spion claims that the First Intifadeh was a non-violent campaign by Arabs. If that is your idea of truth and insight then by all means, carry on. Simply offering a site that echoes one's words seems to be something you liken to "proving" one's position. I can very easily find a site like the MFA or IDF to echo many things I say. What would be the point?
Most rational people realise that propaganda is propagnda no matter the angle. Using Electronic Intifadeh or some very similar source is proving what exactly? That you are not the only one hating Israel? Whatever.
As for "3 sources for 18 months," this is exactly what some people mean when they claim you and others try and evade actual issues by repeating off subject banter over and over. I will remind you that ANOTHER poster took it upon themself to contact the station in questioin and verify what I said. To you it is not about truth at all, not even about sources, it is about belittlement and disparaging another poster. Until about 4 months ago all you did was curse me and then expected me to jump through hoops for you? That is just ridiculous.
Spymaster: "Religious balls.": Hahaha. I am not observant at all but recognise the need for the religious precept. Jews are not a religion, Judiasim is. Jews are a People. We had a culture and Peoplehood long before we had ethical monotheism.
Preservation of any culture is a worthwhile endeavour to me and I fully support any culture or adherents who strive to preserve theirs. I was a born a Jew, a member of an extremely ancient culture and to be part of a dynamic hastening its extinction is compeltely unacceptable to me.
IF religion provides a context with which to preserve it, I am all for it. I feel marriage and personal relationships are a person's choice but at the same time I myself could not be part of something I see as a destructive force. If so called "inter-marriage," etc did not lead to assimilation and rapid loss of culture than I would have no qualm.
Of all the many different Jewish Communities over the eons, only 2 became totally extinct. One was the Hellenist Jews of Greek-Egypt, during the Ptoelmic Dynaty, and the second was in ancient China. In both cases assimilation and its intermarriage led to these extinctions.
With intermarriage approaching the vast majority level in two major Jewish Worlds it is extremely important to be cognizant of the possibilities it entails. If one sees a rate of 80% with the bulk of that 80% leading to children who neither identify nor live as Jews one can see the very real danger of what I am describing.
It is no different than trying to preserve Hunting-Gatherer Cultures, vanishing ways of life are vanishing ways of life and each one made extinct is an incredible loss to all humankind.
I will not respond (and this feed into) your other insults but I did want at least that to be accurate.
Far be it from me to disparage another poster to try and make myself more acceptable to you or anyone else but I really have to take issue when you compare me to Spion in terms of veracity, etc. Spion claims that the First Intifadeh was a non-violent campaign by Arabs. If that is your idea of truth and insight then by all means, carry on. Simply offering a site that echoes one's words seems to be something you liken to "proving" one's position. I can very easily find a site like the MFA or IDF to echo many things I say. What would be the point?
Most rational people realise that propaganda is propagnda no matter the angle. Using Electronic Intifadeh or some very similar source is proving what exactly? That you are not the only one hating Israel? Whatever.
As for "3 sources for 18 months," this is exactly what some people mean when they claim you and others try and evade actual issues by repeating off subject banter over and over. I will remind you that ANOTHER poster took it upon themself to contact the station in questioin and verify what I said. To you it is not about truth at all, not even about sources, it is about belittlement and disparaging another poster. Until about 4 months ago all you did was curse me and then expected me to jump through hoops for you? That is just ridiculous.
Spymaster: "Religious balls.": Hahaha. I am not observant at all but recognise the need for the religious precept. Jews are not a religion, Judiasim is. Jews are a People. We had a culture and Peoplehood long before we had ethical monotheism.
Preservation of any culture is a worthwhile endeavour to me and I fully support any culture or adherents who strive to preserve theirs. I was a born a Jew, a member of an extremely ancient culture and to be part of a dynamic hastening its extinction is compeltely unacceptable to me.
IF religion provides a context with which to preserve it, I am all for it. I feel marriage and personal relationships are a person's choice but at the same time I myself could not be part of something I see as a destructive force. If so called "inter-marriage," etc did not lead to assimilation and rapid loss of culture than I would have no qualm.
Of all the many different Jewish Communities over the eons, only 2 became totally extinct. One was the Hellenist Jews of Greek-Egypt, during the Ptoelmic Dynaty, and the second was in ancient China. In both cases assimilation and its intermarriage led to these extinctions.
With intermarriage approaching the vast majority level in two major Jewish Worlds it is extremely important to be cognizant of the possibilities it entails. If one sees a rate of 80% with the bulk of that 80% leading to children who neither identify nor live as Jews one can see the very real danger of what I am describing.
It is no different than trying to preserve Hunting-Gatherer Cultures, vanishing ways of life are vanishing ways of life and each one made extinct is an incredible loss to all humankind.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Do you seriously expect me to swallow this confection?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ok, well I've done that and have to disagree with you I'm afraid.
Spion simply takes an anti-Israeli position and spouts propaganda to support it. I'm not saying that Rach doesn't do similar but Rach's arguments provide balance to the claims being made by the other team and are supported by argument in a style that is far more credible than the rantings of Spion and which invite further investigation.
In each posters last 30 posts (read at your request) I see nothing to support your assertions that Rachamim is in any way less honest than Spion or anyone else
. He just says stuff that you don't like. Ok, now that I've "humoured you"
eek: Oo Er!), please afford me the same attention and explain to me exactly where you disagree with Rachamim on the issue of ownership of "Palestine" and why. As I see it, the only credible opposition faced by Rachamim on this point is from Tangentlama and it's a cornerstone of these debates. It's also interesting that the most worthwhile debate, between Lama and Rach, contains the least amount of insults.
Grandma Death said:
Just noticed this. Correcting what?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
More lies-on top of the already huge pile of lies you seem to come out with on a near daily basis.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Not at all. The difference being that on one side you have people preparing to qualify their statements-on the other....well....work that out for yourself.
Just look at the post above this SM....its a blatant lie!
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Ok, well I've done that and have to disagree with you I'm afraid.
Spion simply takes an anti-Israeli position and spouts propaganda to support it. I'm not saying that Rach doesn't do similar but Rach's arguments provide balance to the claims being made by the other team and are supported by argument in a style that is far more credible than the rantings of Spion and which invite further investigation.
In each posters last 30 posts (read at your request) I see nothing to support your assertions that Rachamim is in any way less honest than Spion or anyone else
He does far more than that. He says stuff he often doesn't back up, promises to do so then dodges and weaves the multiple requests for proof. This isn't just about polemics SM its also about open and honest debate-something rach is seriously lacking in.
Spion and Rach are opposites but out of those 30 posts who provided the most links?
Even taking into account who has the rightful ownership of land (something Rach and I will disagree with to the days we die) I don't think its right to create the largest refugee movement of peoples anywhere in the world by force to take what you assume is rightfully yours. Its simply not acceptable-and to continue to flout international law and oppress a group of people with ones actions isnt by anyones standards fair.
Whilst I dont agree with Rach's viewpoints on ownership what I take offense at is his constant barrage of propaganda. His refusal to debate openly and honestly. His consistent apologist stand (which is at times fucking nauseous). His misquoting (deliberate or not) and his persistant wriggling and obfuscation.
I am surprised at you SM-Rach is the Tobyjug of the ME forum. I would suggest you stick around to find out for yourself-try debating with him. Once you have you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
That Rach hasn't been posting for 7 years.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Metaphorically speaking, he's still pissing in peoples swimming pools.
Say hello to him for me
Nino: Does Rachamim expect Nino to swallow what Rachamim says about Israel and the development - or lack thereof - of 'WB' infrastructure?": No, I expect you to offer a FACTUAL rebuttal, not insult me. However, I very rarely see my expectations met in this forum so it is just par for the course. Next?
Grandma: "More lies...": I certainly do not want to engage in more off subject nonsense but I think this is an important issue for the entire forum and its future so I will humour you on this one facet. Indeed, you iniated a thread within the last 4 months (I know the timeline because it happened after I came to America) that asked if "people who refuse to provide sources" should be banned.
Now I of course grant you that the initial post did not mention me by name but seeing as how the line had been your personal mantra for well over 18 months (from BEFORE I went to Israel in 2006) and how you constantly cursed and belittled me for this alleged issue I believe almost all people will easily agree that it was meant to disparage me.
Then, within the first 3 or 4 posts my name is entered and you proceed to toss garbage at me for the rest of the thread so that your making this denial is just sad and symptomatic of the nonsense that passes for discourse here.
As I said there, said before that thead and well after, why in the world would you or anyone else ever want to participate in a forum where everyone believes the same way? I do not spend time at Jewish forums (I DO rarely post on one but that is very rare) because to be honest, noone is going to teach me anything (or at least the chances are very slim). I post here not only to help others see different viewpoints but to allow me to see others as well. It helps me grow as a person and keeps me from developing into an ideological pawn.
Grandma: "More lies...": I certainly do not want to engage in more off subject nonsense but I think this is an important issue for the entire forum and its future so I will humour you on this one facet. Indeed, you iniated a thread within the last 4 months (I know the timeline because it happened after I came to America) that asked if "people who refuse to provide sources" should be banned.
Now I of course grant you that the initial post did not mention me by name but seeing as how the line had been your personal mantra for well over 18 months (from BEFORE I went to Israel in 2006) and how you constantly cursed and belittled me for this alleged issue I believe almost all people will easily agree that it was meant to disparage me.
Then, within the first 3 or 4 posts my name is entered and you proceed to toss garbage at me for the rest of the thread so that your making this denial is just sad and symptomatic of the nonsense that passes for discourse here.
As I said there, said before that thead and well after, why in the world would you or anyone else ever want to participate in a forum where everyone believes the same way? I do not spend time at Jewish forums (I DO rarely post on one but that is very rare) because to be honest, noone is going to teach me anything (or at least the chances are very slim). I post here not only to help others see different viewpoints but to allow me to see others as well. It helps me grow as a person and keeps me from developing into an ideological pawn.
Grandma: Ahhh, there it is. "Who provided the MOST LINKS." Ahhh, that to you equals veracity? See, I take the exact opposite approach. I feel that IF I provide soemthing factual WITHOUT links, people will seek to verifiy it and then find that indeed IT IS TRUE. Maybe it is my age, although I am certainly by no means the oldest posting here. I was taught to actually research, not to rely on what others say.
Spion (not just him by any means) offers a link to Adalah, EI, or some other completely biased non-sensical site and you believe this proves what? AGAIN, that there are sites that ALSO hate Israel?
Tell you what, I will throw an MFA, IDF, or even Kahane Chai site up as a source on nearly everything I post of a pro-Israel nature. Will this then satsify you and convince you of my veracity? You are not making any sense.
"Largest group of refugees in the world.": This illustrates PERFECTLY my point, that you are simply buying into propaganda. LEt us not take the true number of Arab refugees from Israel Proper (which is about 290,000 because of course this does not include the actual number which incorporates refugees from Jorrdan, Gaza, and the so called "WB"), and instead take a purely fictitious number for the sake of argument. The highest number used by Arabs themselves is 700,000 plus. In reality, if we take all the refugees, from Jordan, Gaza, "WB," and Israel we actually have avbout 495,000 but I want to prove a point.
OK, ok, we have 700,000 refugees. YOu say this is the largest refugee population? Try Jews. Jews from Arab lands only. No the number there? The actual number? 1,000,000.
Arab refugees were offered the Right to Return 3 times, the last time lasting for a 20 year period. They were offered this right in the 49 Armistice, they refused. They were offered this right at Lausanne, they refused (although they DID accept the 10 million US payout in 1950 dollars which is an incredible amount in today's money). They were offered this right from 1951 to 1970.5 as part of the Kin Reunification PRogram. Indeed in that last opportunity an amount numbering more than the entire refugee population from Israel Proper WAS repatriated and so we see that it is not even a real issue at all, except where Arabs have chjosen to make it so.
They believed that by accepting return they were offering tacit acceptance of Israel's very existence and this was something that is anathema to most.
I want to add that in addition to the 10 million dollars they received many thousands of hectares of land within Israel Proper, making up the bulk of that 3.5% of total land owned by Arabs within the so called Green Line (Jews only own 3.5% as well in terms of private ownership so forget trying to make the percentage some kind of argumentive point).
Those 1 million Jews from Arab lands, most of whom were members of communities that predated Arab's arrivals in those nations by even a millenia or more? None ever received any permission to return. None received a dollar despite the losses in terms of private property and assets topping 100 billion in 1948 dollars!
I want to add that until I brushed up on the subject this week I had believed our losses to total only 1 billion US, but as stated it was 100 billion. So maybe you should rethink your feelings on the issue of refugees.
"They were made refugges by force.": Did i not provide many dozens of hyper linked sources (soemthing you claim to find absolutely important) to disprove this assertion? In fact, I recently did so with Spion. It is true that in at least 11 villages Israel did ethnically cleanse them, ALTHOUGH WITHOUT FORCE. It is also true that in Yeir Dassin Israeli militia men committed horrible atrocities (again though, this has been misrepresented as to numbers and means). However, almost all refugees (Arabs) left on their own accord. IAlso, Arab "leaders" pressured them to do so. I have provided a multitude of disparate sources including foreign observers, contemporous journalists, and Arabs themselves to prove this.
To compound the injustices being heaped upon Israel with regard to Arab refugees, in addition to allowing return 3 separate times over a 22 year period, Arabs caused almost the entire problem!!!
"Continue to flout International Law.": Again, where are the charges? Indictments? Trials? Convictions? Israel , no any Israels, have EVER even been charged once, let alone many times so again, you need to work on your accuracy.
IF Israel even broke ANY existing International Law, why no charges?
"Rachamim's constant barrage of propaganda...": Extremely humorous given your claims just addressed. Try refuting what I have just posted, FACTUALLY. Thank you in advance.
"Constant apologist stand.": WRONG. Apologetics involve a defence of soemthing incoorect by strict definition. If we coopt the Catholic use of the word we find a defense of all accusatroy claims. Instead, I have no problem discussing actual issues where Israel is actually remiss and indeed have made a couple of claims very recently to that effect. Here however, I have provided facts. You know what will happen? You and others will reply that I am a liar, I am this, I am that and never once challenge my statements with OTHER supposed facts. This is what passes for discussion and that is sad.
I made some claims above, try and disprove them. Problem though is that they are true and it drives you crazy.
If you want to discuss under representation at the Cabinet Level (govt fauult), the lack of Arabs demographics in military induction (not the govt's fault but a fault of Arabs themselves), inadmissability of non-Jews to the IAF (govt and military's fault), Civil Law being coopted by religious groups for all of Israel's existence (all religions and govt's faults), and many others I am all for it. Instead you want to parrot ignorant propaganda that has no basis in reality.
It is my duty as a human to try and combat gnorance. It is my duty as a Jew to try and help my fellow humans. It is my duty as an Israeli to try and show my nation in the ture light, both good and bad. It is my duty as a member of U75 to honestly offer my participation without regard to what I see as positive or negative with regard to a particular issue.
Although the "7 year" thing has nothing to dow ith me per se I have to say that is just symptomatic of the nonsense going on here. Try letting go of non-subject nonsense and talking about actual subjects. I never saw a conflict with the 7 year claim. The poster was mentioning how long THEY have been reading things here, not how long I have been here.
Spion (not just him by any means) offers a link to Adalah, EI, or some other completely biased non-sensical site and you believe this proves what? AGAIN, that there are sites that ALSO hate Israel?
Tell you what, I will throw an MFA, IDF, or even Kahane Chai site up as a source on nearly everything I post of a pro-Israel nature. Will this then satsify you and convince you of my veracity? You are not making any sense.
"Largest group of refugees in the world.": This illustrates PERFECTLY my point, that you are simply buying into propaganda. LEt us not take the true number of Arab refugees from Israel Proper (which is about 290,000 because of course this does not include the actual number which incorporates refugees from Jorrdan, Gaza, and the so called "WB"), and instead take a purely fictitious number for the sake of argument. The highest number used by Arabs themselves is 700,000 plus. In reality, if we take all the refugees, from Jordan, Gaza, "WB," and Israel we actually have avbout 495,000 but I want to prove a point.
OK, ok, we have 700,000 refugees. YOu say this is the largest refugee population? Try Jews. Jews from Arab lands only. No the number there? The actual number? 1,000,000.
Arab refugees were offered the Right to Return 3 times, the last time lasting for a 20 year period. They were offered this right in the 49 Armistice, they refused. They were offered this right at Lausanne, they refused (although they DID accept the 10 million US payout in 1950 dollars which is an incredible amount in today's money). They were offered this right from 1951 to 1970.5 as part of the Kin Reunification PRogram. Indeed in that last opportunity an amount numbering more than the entire refugee population from Israel Proper WAS repatriated and so we see that it is not even a real issue at all, except where Arabs have chjosen to make it so.
They believed that by accepting return they were offering tacit acceptance of Israel's very existence and this was something that is anathema to most.
I want to add that in addition to the 10 million dollars they received many thousands of hectares of land within Israel Proper, making up the bulk of that 3.5% of total land owned by Arabs within the so called Green Line (Jews only own 3.5% as well in terms of private ownership so forget trying to make the percentage some kind of argumentive point).
Those 1 million Jews from Arab lands, most of whom were members of communities that predated Arab's arrivals in those nations by even a millenia or more? None ever received any permission to return. None received a dollar despite the losses in terms of private property and assets topping 100 billion in 1948 dollars!
I want to add that until I brushed up on the subject this week I had believed our losses to total only 1 billion US, but as stated it was 100 billion. So maybe you should rethink your feelings on the issue of refugees.
"They were made refugges by force.": Did i not provide many dozens of hyper linked sources (soemthing you claim to find absolutely important) to disprove this assertion? In fact, I recently did so with Spion. It is true that in at least 11 villages Israel did ethnically cleanse them, ALTHOUGH WITHOUT FORCE. It is also true that in Yeir Dassin Israeli militia men committed horrible atrocities (again though, this has been misrepresented as to numbers and means). However, almost all refugees (Arabs) left on their own accord. IAlso, Arab "leaders" pressured them to do so. I have provided a multitude of disparate sources including foreign observers, contemporous journalists, and Arabs themselves to prove this.
To compound the injustices being heaped upon Israel with regard to Arab refugees, in addition to allowing return 3 separate times over a 22 year period, Arabs caused almost the entire problem!!!
"Continue to flout International Law.": Again, where are the charges? Indictments? Trials? Convictions? Israel , no any Israels, have EVER even been charged once, let alone many times so again, you need to work on your accuracy.
IF Israel even broke ANY existing International Law, why no charges?
"Rachamim's constant barrage of propaganda...": Extremely humorous given your claims just addressed. Try refuting what I have just posted, FACTUALLY. Thank you in advance.
"Constant apologist stand.": WRONG. Apologetics involve a defence of soemthing incoorect by strict definition. If we coopt the Catholic use of the word we find a defense of all accusatroy claims. Instead, I have no problem discussing actual issues where Israel is actually remiss and indeed have made a couple of claims very recently to that effect. Here however, I have provided facts. You know what will happen? You and others will reply that I am a liar, I am this, I am that and never once challenge my statements with OTHER supposed facts. This is what passes for discussion and that is sad.
I made some claims above, try and disprove them. Problem though is that they are true and it drives you crazy.
If you want to discuss under representation at the Cabinet Level (govt fauult), the lack of Arabs demographics in military induction (not the govt's fault but a fault of Arabs themselves), inadmissability of non-Jews to the IAF (govt and military's fault), Civil Law being coopted by religious groups for all of Israel's existence (all religions and govt's faults), and many others I am all for it. Instead you want to parrot ignorant propaganda that has no basis in reality.
It is my duty as a human to try and combat gnorance. It is my duty as a Jew to try and help my fellow humans. It is my duty as an Israeli to try and show my nation in the ture light, both good and bad. It is my duty as a member of U75 to honestly offer my participation without regard to what I see as positive or negative with regard to a particular issue.
Although the "7 year" thing has nothing to dow ith me per se I have to say that is just symptomatic of the nonsense going on here. Try letting go of non-subject nonsense and talking about actual subjects. I never saw a conflict with the 7 year claim. The poster was mentioning how long THEY have been reading things here, not how long I have been here.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
How old are you Rach?
41, missed the computer age but trying to make up for it haha.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Say hello to him for me
You just did. He often reads the boards
.Well I'm not so sure. I've seen you responding to to Dubversions "Why is [Rachamim] still allowed to post here?", with "I ask myself the same question every day" so there's no doubt that you feel that he should be banned. You've made that clear.
Regarding starting threads about it, I notice that Rach has engaged you himself on that point so I'll read your response to him.
Rachamim said:
How long in the U.S. and what are you doing there?
Well, I was born here, but left verey young after spending much of each year in Israel. My dad's family were from Hebron,etc. I lfet the army in June 30th of 2007 and went to live in Mindano in the Philippines, my wife's family is there.
I came here in April to convert my assets into the Euro and gold, the dolalr was killing us. Not to go off on tangetns but the family bread and butter is grain milling, primarily rice. There is a very bad rice shortage and capital was getting thrown to the wolves as long as it hung on the dollar.
I also had to take care of some benefits with my union (I seasonally worked in the States for years, underground construction).
Finally, something I hjave not talked about (yes there is one!) and that is I am dying. I have Hep-C and have had it since I fought in Lebanon in the 80s, probably from the dirty IV they gave me (I have never used injection drugs so that is how I must have gotten it).
I have been trying to get Ribavarin, a protease inhibitor usally prescribed to combat HIV, and also Interferon-B a form of chemotherapy in injectable form.I will have tot ake them together for 6 to 12 months to try and effect some progress or even G-D wiling a cure although i certainly hold no hope for that (yeah sure).
The Philippine pharmocopiea only had it as an oral form and even then have to order it from Switzerland and you can imagine the difficulty that entails since I live deep in the bush.
So, here I am, almost have the meds and then back home. However, I will probably be living in our second home in Cebu City on Cebu (another Philippines island) because my wife Rizza is now on to her 2nd degree and is in school there so ...
I travel alot though. This year, aside from the Philippines many isladns I have been to Thailand, Cambodia, Hong Kong, and now here.
I came here in April to convert my assets into the Euro and gold, the dolalr was killing us. Not to go off on tangetns but the family bread and butter is grain milling, primarily rice. There is a very bad rice shortage and capital was getting thrown to the wolves as long as it hung on the dollar.
I also had to take care of some benefits with my union (I seasonally worked in the States for years, underground construction).
Finally, something I hjave not talked about (yes there is one!) and that is I am dying. I have Hep-C and have had it since I fought in Lebanon in the 80s, probably from the dirty IV they gave me (I have never used injection drugs so that is how I must have gotten it).
I have been trying to get Ribavarin, a protease inhibitor usally prescribed to combat HIV, and also Interferon-B a form of chemotherapy in injectable form.I will have tot ake them together for 6 to 12 months to try and effect some progress or even G-D wiling a cure although i certainly hold no hope for that (yeah sure).
The Philippine pharmocopiea only had it as an oral form and even then have to order it from Switzerland and you can imagine the difficulty that entails since I live deep in the bush.
So, here I am, almost have the meds and then back home. However, I will probably be living in our second home in Cebu City on Cebu (another Philippines island) because my wife Rizza is now on to her 2nd degree and is in school there so ...
I travel alot though. This year, aside from the Philippines many isladns I have been to Thailand, Cambodia, Hong Kong, and now here.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Sorry to hear about the Hep C. I wish you well with that.
You have used smack though I recall. Is that a habit you picked up in the army (I believe the IDF has a major heroin problem) and do you still use it?
You have used smack though I recall. Is that a habit you picked up in the army (I believe the IDF has a major heroin problem) and do you still use it?
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