Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[B.I.G]

This is just "they are racists therefore they're racists". It's not an explanation of anything. No evidence, no argument, no reasoning.

You're sure about that? No other benefits? Well, I guess we can take your word for it. What with you being educated and non-deluded.

I asked if voting Remain was in the interests of those voting Remain. You seem to have avoided answering that.

With you being educated and non deluded, we'll have to accept that. Was there no other issue being decided then? Only civil rights?

And voting in favour of the status quo is voting in my interests? Your interests? The interests of everyone?

You attested they were. You brought up the term "uneducated". You meant it in a patronising, superior way. Then when challenged on it, you said you didn't. You said you meant it in a non-judgemental, specific way, as purely a descriptor. You meant people not educated beyond statutory age. So either you knew something about that demographic or you didn't. Which?

If you are a racist than you are a racist, and therefore likely to vote for a racist. What explanation is needed.

Voting is in the interests of voting remain voters if there interests are aligned with the four principles of the EU. Mine are, they can only speak for themselves.

Voting in favour of the status quo means you have to be very deluded to not realise what is happening, rather than a mythical future.

I have attested several times that people voting for Trump or Brexit were uneducated, stupid, or deluded, and I might as well add racist. It is you suggesting I meant it in a patronising superior way, since I know I do not patronise or feel superior to the uneducated.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, but what those bodies had in common was some sort of concern for the economic 'health' of the nation-state/society concerned; but neoliberal oligarchic inequality is so great that genuine oligarchic wealth is largely decoupled from the fate of the national economy. The desire for secure wealth havens exceeds concern for economic impact of the withdrawal from the super-state.

I think you're wandering into some dangerous territory here where a handful - a few tens of thousands people - who are utterly reliant on the state and it's real financial support and political legitimation for their continued existence - have both abandoned and taken over the state whilst directing millions of people to do something which they (the oligarchs) actually opposed. Whilst the mass of really existing capital actually aggressively supported and argued for exactly the same as what they wanted. That is, to stay in the EU. So why on earth would these oligarchs act in this way - if they could?

 

[B.I.G]

Definitely in the interests of those that have seen their standard of living decrease over the last 30 years. Why would they not want more of the same.

It is a point of view to think that standards of living have declined due to the EU, I would disagree.

 

[butchersapron]

Finally some sense.

 

[danny la rouge]

If you are a racist than you are a racist, and therefore likely to vote for a racist. What explanation is needed.

You're just writing people off as racists without trying to find out whether you're right about that. And spraying the term about indiscriminately cheapens it. That helps nobody. And pisses off people even further who are already pissed off by the liberal elite. You want an alienated mass of people? Carry on.

Voting is in the interests of voting remain voters if there interests are aligned with the four principles of the EU. Mine are, they can only speak for themselves.

The EU is a neoliberal project. My interests are not aligned with it. Where do we go from there? You calling me racist and uneducated?

Voting in favour of the status quo means you have to be very deluded to not realise what is happening, rather than a mythical future.

And there we have it: "actively vote for the staus quo or you're deluded". I don't want the status quo. I don't like the EU the way it is now. (C/f Greece). Never mind what it'll become. So where does that leave us? What do I do?

I have attested several times that people voting for Trump or Brexit were uneducated, stupid, or deluded, and I might as well add racist. It is you suggesting I meant it in a patronising superior way, since I know I do not patronise or feel superior to the uneducated.

But you continue to attest they are uneducated. When asked what you meant by that you said: not educated beyond statutory age. Then you said you didn't know if Remainers or Clintoneers were educated beyond statutory leaving age. You must have thought it relevant when you brought it up, so how is it relevant? What is it about that demographic that you thought was worth mentioning? Are they disproportionately Leavers or Remainers? What is the argument?

 

[emanymton]

If you are a racist than you are a racist, and therefore likely to vote for a racist. What explanation is needed

And that's it? They are juat a racist and nothing more? They don't have any concerns beyond racism that you might share with them? There is no way to challage their racist ideas? Being a racist is what gentic and Just hardwired into some people?

My grandad was a racist, not that he would ever have voted ukip or anything, but he had rascist ideas and came out with rascist statements. He was also a trade union rep who defended people against rascist bullying. Because when it came to the crunch his sense of class solidarity was stronger than his racism. But to you no doubt he was just uneducated, thick and worthless.

 

[brogdale]

I think you're wandering into some dangerous territory here where a handful - a few tens of thousands people - who are utterly reliant on the state and it's real financial support and political legitimation for their continued existence - have both abandoned and taken over the state whilst directing millions of people to do something which they (the oligarchs) actually opposed. Whilst the mass of really existing capital actually aggressively supported and argued for exactly the same as what they wanted. That is, to stay in the EU. So why on earth would these oligarchs act in this way - if they could?

I'm conscious that I may have spent a bit too much time mulling over Adam Tooze's recent LRB piece, and am regurgitating, but...wrt "dangerous territory"; yes, I accept that this sort of argument runs the risk of skating too close to certain strands of loonspudery. That said, I don't say that oligarchic drivers of Trump/Brexit have sought to abandon the state; quite the opposite, but vast wealth does enable them to effectively abandon concern for the economic well-being of the state they choose as their preferred wealth-haven. I would say that Trump's billionaire administration demonstrates this desire to secure the levers of the state to consolidate a secure, ordered (possibly authoritarian), zero-tax wealth haven for their (albeit tiny) class. A, once more, sovereign UK(England?) is far more susceptible to such a process of political development, than was a nation-state bound by the ever closer political union of the super-state.

 

[JimW]

Strange gene, the racism one, as its prevalence seems to fluctuate with completely unrelated social and political circumstances.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm conscious that I may have spent a bit too much time mulling over Adam Tooze's recent LRB piece, and am regurgitating, but...wrt "dangerous territory"; yes, I accept that this sort of argument runs the risk of skating too close to certain strands of loonspudery. That said, I don't say that oligarchic drivers of Trump/Brexit have sought to abandon the state; quite the opposite, but vast wealth does enable them to effectively abandon concern for the economic well-being of the state they choose as their preferred wealth-haven. I would say that Trump's billionaire administration demonstrates this desire to secure the levers of the state to consolidate a secure, ordered (possibly authoritarian), zero-tax wealth haven for their (albeit tiny) class. A, once more, sovereign UK(England?) is far more susceptible to such a process of political development, than was a nation-state bound by the ever closer political union of the super-state.

The people and interest you're talking about though - they have the ECB as their continent wide bailiffs (edit: as well as shoveling money their way non-stop). They have no interest in doing away with that set up and simply didn't argue for it. I think there's far more possibility to make this argument as regards trump than the eu vote - but again, i don't see these people and interests doing anything to get behind him. nor him doing much more to further their interests than Clinton would have done. Which would explain why they didn't really organise against her.

 

[B.I.G]

You're just writing people off as racists without trying to find out whether you're right about that. And spraying the term about indiscriminately cheapens it. That helps nobody. And pisses off people even further who are already pissed off by the liberal elite. You want an alienated mass of people? Carry on.

The EU is a neoliberal project. My interests are not aligned with it. Where do we go from there? You calling me racist and uneducated?

And there we have it: "actively vote for the staus quo or you're deluded". I don't want the status quo. I don't like the EU the way it is now. (C/f Greece). Never mind what it'll become. So where does that leave us? What do I do?

But you continue to attest they are uneducated. When asked what you meant by that you said: not educated beyond statutory age. Then you said you didn't know if Remainers or Clintoneers were educated beyond statutory leaving age. You must have thought it relevant when you brought it up, so how is it relevant? What is it about that demographic that you thought was worth mentioning? Are they disproportionately Leavers or Remainers? What is the argument?

If people vote for racists than they are racists.

If you don't like the EU the way it is then you are putting your faith that things will be better outside, I think that is deluded, but you may well turn out to be right.

My argument is that people that wanted to leave the EU are either stupid, uneducated, deluded or racist. I believe you to be deluded in thinking the EU will be less palatable to you in the future than what will become of the UK government and country, but that is entirely a matter of opinion and conjecture.

 

[B.I.G]

Strange gene, the racism one, as its prevalence seems to fluctuate with completely unrelated social and political circumstances.

People are just as racist when things are going well.

 

[butchersapron]

If people vote for racists than they are racists.

If you don't like the EU the way it is then you are putting your faith that things will be better outside, I think that is deluded, but you may well turn out to be right.

My argument is that people that wanted to leave the EU are either stupid, uneducated, deluded or racist. I believe you to be deluded in thinking the EU will be less palatable to you in the future than what will become of the UK government and country, but that is entirely a matter of opinion and conjecture.

If they vote for non-racists, does that make them non-racists? Does voting for labour mean that you're not a racist? Dangerous game. Again.

 

[B.I.G]

And that's it? They are juat a racist and nothing more? They don't have any concerns beyond racism that you might share with them? There is no way to challage their racist ideas? Being a racist is what gentic and Just hardwired into some people?

My grandad was a racist, not that he would ever have voted ukip or anything, but he had rascist ideas and came out with rascist statements. He was also a trade union rep who defended people against rascist bullying. Because when it came to the crunch his sense of class solidarity was stronger than his racism. But to you no doubt he was just uneducated, thick and worthless.

If he was a racist than I regard him as worthless. The world would be a lot better off without racists.

 

[B.I.G]

If they vote for non-racists, does that make them non-racists? Does voting for labour mean that you're not a racist? Dangerous game. Again.

Not sure the Labour party does not equal equivalence with non-racist.

 

[butchersapron]

If he was a racist than I regard him as worthless. The world would be a lot better off without racists.

Something so heinous that you want millions dead, yet you have no interest at all in what produces what you decry. Genius stuff.

 

[danny la rouge]

If you are a racist than you are a racist, and therefore likely to vote for a racist. What explanation is needed.

Voting is in the interests of voting remain voters if there interests are aligned with the four principles of the EU. Mine are, they can only speak for themselves.

Voting in favour of the status quo means you have to be very deluded to not realise what is happening, rather than a mythical future.

I have attested several times that people voting for Trump or Brexit were uneducated, stupid, or deluded, and I might as well add racist. It is you suggesting I meant it in a patronising superior way, since I know I do not patronise or feel superior to the uneducated.

Here's your status quo: if a member state tries to increase the pensions of the poorest, that state gets really and actually penalised: UK Votes to Leave EU

Unless I vote in favour of that I'm deluded, uneducated and probably racist.

Can't you see how you're just pushing the majority - the majority - further away?

 

[butchersapron]

Not sure the Labour party does not equal equivalence with non-racist.

So then, your simple equation breaks down doesn't it?

 

[brogdale]

The people and interest you're talking about though - they have the ECB as their continent wide bailiffs (edit: as well as shoveling money their way non-stop). They have no interest in doing away with that set up and simply didn't argue for it. I think there's far more possibility to make this argument as regards trump than the eu vote - but again, i don't see these people and interests doing anything to get behind him. nor him doing much more to further their interests than Clinton would have done. Which would explain why they didn't really organise against her.

I'm aware I (we) might be cluttering up this thread with this argument & getting in the way of the racism discussion?

But hey, I suppose I am calling out the non-Lexit Leave vote as useful idiots, so I better try to defend my position.
I think that the people and interests that I'm talking about are, for the reasons you suggest, perfectly happy for the ECB to continue to effect regressive wealth redistribution...and indeed it will continue to do so, irrespective of the UK detaching itself into an oligarch-friendly wealth-haven. With regards to the oligarchic support of Trump, I'd agree that in advance of his victory the support of these interests was not so visible. I suspect that they either felt that explicit support would be unhelpful, he would not win or that he was too flaky a candidate to carry their "insurgency". That said, it was obvious that the prospect of a Trump victory was welcomed in states already more advanced in oligarchic rule.

 

[JimW]

People are just as racist when things are going well.

Been a constant down the years then? Always with us, like the poor.

 

[danny la rouge]

If people vote for racists than they are racists.

What about people who vote for people want to punish elderly Greeks for the misdemeanours of banks? Why do you hate Greeks?

If you don't like the EU the way it is then you are putting your faith that things will be better outside, I think that is deluded, but you may well turn out to be right.

This is the problem with forcing everything into a binary choice. Either for or against. There's nothing else. You either vote with us or you're deluded. If I look at what your side is offering and I don't like it, then my only choice is something else I might not like. But you're calling me deluded and uneducated. I may not like the other choice, but you've just told me it's my only one.

My argument is that people that wanted to leave the EU are either stupid, uneducated, deluded or racist.

I know, but you have supported none of these allegations with any evidence. Put your argument together: we have your conclusion, what are the steps leading to it?

I believe you to be deluded in thinking the EU will be less palatable to you in the future than what will become of the UK government and country

I have not once said that I "think the EU will be less palatable to me in the future than what will become of the UK government and country". I don't even think it makes sense.

 

[B.I.G]

What about people who vote for people want to punish elderly Greeks for the misdemeanours of banks? Why do you hate Greeks?

This is the problem with forcing everything into a binary choice. Either for or against. There's nothing else. You either vote with us or you're deluded. If I look at what your side is offering and I don't like it, then my only choice is something else I might not like. But you're calling me deluded and uneducated. I may not like the other choice, but you've just told me it's my only one.

I know, but you have supported none of these allegations with any evidence. Put your argument together: we have your conclusion, what are the steps leading to it?


I have not once said that I "think the EU will be less palatable to me in the future than what will become of the UK government and country". I don't even think it makes sense.

You vote against the EU because its neo-liberal, but then the UK government will be even more neo-liberal. Anyway you asked why I hate Greeks, so I really can't be bothered anymore.

 

[pengaleng]

lol europe is fulla nazis lol no ones 'neo liberal' lol go there, try it, you'll get called a british cunt cus they hate us

 

[Pickman's model]

lol europe is fulla nazis lol no ones 'neo liberal' lol go there, try it, you'll get called a british cunt cus they hate us

Tbh not been my experience, perhaps you're going to the wrong places

 

[pengaleng]

Tbh not been my experience, perhaps you're going to the wrong places

maybe you're only going to the monied city centres near the airports or ferry docks on your own, monaco isit

people always get the rose tinted view of 'liberal' europe

 

[Pickman's model]

If people vote for racists than they are racists.

The tory, labour and lib dem parties share racist pasts, e.g. the racist lib dem policies in Tower hamlets in the 90s. Is everyone who has voted for any of these parties to be written off as racist?

 

[Pickman's model]

maybe you're only going to the monied city centres near the airports or ferry docks on your own, monaco isit

No.

Next.

 

[pengaleng]

The tory, labour and lib dem parties share racist pasts, e.g. the racist lib dem policies in Tower hamlets in the 90s. Is everyone who has voted for any of these parties to be written off as racist?

nah if you vote lib dem yer just a wanker

 

[danny la rouge]

You vote against the EU because its neo-liberal, but then the UK government will be even more neo-liberal. Anyway you asked why I hate Greeks, so I really can't be bothered anymore.

But that's your doing: you are presenting it as a binary.

So, if it's either one or the other that means you hate Greeks and old people (racist and ageist), or you thought the Eu would help Greeks and old people (deluded), or you don't understand the process (uneducated).

And if it pisses you off to be told that, then you might just be getting an inkling of insight. Imagine the whole establishment was telling you this, despite years of doing nothing for you. Despite promoting identity politics. What do you do?

 

[pengaleng]

No.

Next.

a hippy commune then seeing as you got the john lennons on or maybe an art gallery

 

[pengaleng]

identity politics is a selfish joke