Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[chilango]

One thing I've noticed in my own conversations about this is that - if I may simplistically generalise for a moment - w/c voters were least likely to be "conned" as they didn't believe the promises/threats being made and were e a lot more cynical about any effect that their vote might have whilst m/c voters were more likely to connect their vote with the potential changes (for good or ill) being promised by the various campaigns.

Which might make sense as the politicians are used to targeting campaigns at the relatively small proportion of largely m/c swing voters in key marginals...and changes coming from election results tend to be noticed most by the m/c, results change the lot of the w/c (or the r/c for that matter) little.

I'm just speculating on the basis of a handful of conversations of course...

 

[General Veers]

One thing I've noticed in my own conversations about this is that - if I may simplistically generalise for a moment - w/c voters were least likely to be "conned" as they didn't believe the promises/threats being made and were e a lot more cynical about any effect that their vote might have whilst m/c voters were more likely to connect their vote with the potential changes (for good or ill) being promised by the various campaigns.

Which might make sense as the politicians are used to targeting campaigns at the relatively small proportion of largely m/c swing voters in key marginals...and changes coming from election results tend to be noticed most by the m/c, results change the lot of the w/c (or the r/c for that matter) little.

I'm just speculating on the basis of a handful of conversations of course...

You're right. Not many politicians are addressing the actual concerns that lead to such a big leave vote in the North beyond saying they'll respect the result and this is mainly coming from Tory ones. A lot of Labour MPs in the Northern constituencies still intend to go against the people who put them there and although UKIP won't do an SNP, it'll still bite Labour on the arse.

Look at Richmond though, the media are portraying that place as a barometer for the whole country and that's clearly bollocks. Richmond is hardly home to people pissed off with austerity.

 

[Raheem]

Look at Richmond though, the media are portraying that place as a barometer for the whole country and that's clearly bollocks. Richmond is hardly home to people pissed off with austerity.

If it were, then it sadly wouldn't really serve as a barometer, would it? But I don't think the media used Richmond in that way. It was more a test of the we're-all-Brexiteers-now hypothesis,

 

[emanymton]

One thing I've noticed in my own conversations about this is that - if I may simplistically generalise for a moment - w/c voters were least likely to be "conned" as they didn't believe the promises/threats being made and were e a lot more cynical about any effect that their vote might have whilst m/c voters were more likely to connect their vote with the potential changes (for good or ill) being promised by the various campaigns.

Which might make sense as the politicians are used to targeting campaigns at the relatively small proportion of largely m/c swing voters in key marginals...and changes coming from election results tend to be noticed most by the m/c, results change the lot of the w/c (or the r/c for that matter) little.

I'm just speculating on the basis of a handful of conversations of course...

I read a book by Steven Rose years ago. He mentioned an alternative IQ test based on seeing through bullshit (I may be paraphrasing a little), in which the working class tended to score higher.

 

[William of Walworth]

One thing I've noticed in my own conversations about this is that - if I may simplistically generalise for a moment - w/c voters were least likely to be "conned" as they didn't believe the promises/threats being made and were e a lot more cynical about any effect that their vote might have whilst m/c voters were more likely to connect their vote with the potential changes (for good or ill) being promised by the various campaigns.

chilango
Were the people you chatted with equally sceptical towards the Remain 'Project Fear' bollocks as they were towards Leave's '£350m back to the NHS' bollocks though?

Genuine question (I admit I ask as someone who voted Remain myself, albeit with a very low level of enthusiasm).

Just asking, because for ages I've been a tad suspicious about selective scepticism during the referendum campaign. The Leave campaign leaders were just as much of a bunch of lying establishment conmerchants as the Remain side (IMO), but the former lot had much more attractive tunes for some people.

And IMO, the Leave campaign had far more and louder RW media liars on their side. Plus underscrutiny from other parts of the media. Not that the Remain campaign was much scrutinised either, it was just that for me, Remain was more of a complacent, lazy and shit campaign.

ETA : apologies .... most of the above is moving away from your main point I think.

 

[chilango]

chilango
Were the people you chatted with equally sceptical towards the Remain 'Project Fear' bollocks as they were towards Leave's '£350m back to the NHS' bollocks though?

Genuine question (I admit I ask as someone who voted Remain myself, albeit with a very low level of enthusiasm).

Just asking, because for ages I've been a tad suspicious about selective scepticism during the referendum campaign. The Leave campaign leaders were just as much of a bunch of lying establishment conmerchants as the Remain side (IMO), but the former lot had much more attractive tunes for some people.

And IMO, the Leave campaign had far more and louder RW media liars on their side. Plus underscrutiny from other parts of the media. Not that the Remain campaign was much scrutinised either, it was just that for me, Remain was more of a complacent, lazy and shit campaign.

ETA : apologies .... most of the above is moving away from your main point I think.

Short answer is "yes".

Again over simplifying, but w/c people I've chatted to about it tended to have few illusions that anything would actually happen regardless of the vote, to the point that (for example) one of the more vocal w/c leave voters I know didn't actually bother to vote in the end, shrugging and saying "it's not like it'll make any difference anyway will it? they'll just keep on doing what they want".

m/c voters I know (both Remain and Leave) seemed, and continued to be, far more agitated about the whether what they'd been promised/threatened will happen.


But like I said, it's purely anecdotal from a small sample, so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Libertad]

I read a book by Steven Rose years ago. He mentioned an alternative IQ test based on seeing through bullshit (I may be paraphrasing a little), in which the working class tended to score higher.

Steve Rose posts on here occasionally.

 

[krtek a houby]

There you go, the same could be said for the remain lot, I voted to be shafted by one government instead of 28 with the possibility of doing something about it afterwards.

It's not leave/remain that I'm pissed off about, I've had loads of friendly debates in the boozer etc. with remain voters, leave ones and non-voters. It's the sneering undercurrent of a lot of folk who are labelling the working class thick and not worthy of making decisions that affect our lives. We need to be lead according to them because we're incapable of deciding what's good for us. That's what I find disturbing.

Also, there's sneering at those who voted to remain, "liberals" and so on. Maybe if there was less sneering all round and over reacting, we might find a common ground. And, as I said earlier, I was one of those who over reacted. Mea culpa.

 

[Mr Moose]

Also, there's sneering at those who voted to remain, "liberals" and so on. Maybe if there was less sneering all round and over reacting, we might find a common ground. And, as I said earlier, I was one of those who over reacted. Mea culpa.

Good post. A better read than this daft deification of straight talking (white) working class folk.

It's a road to nowhere as most working class black or Asian people voted to remain. Are they less good at spotting BS? I very much doubt it.

There was no good answer to the question, because it was asked within the straitjacket of scarcity and insecurity that no simple answer breaks through.

We need a much better politic than hating liberals all day long.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Some of the most stupid people I've ever known were middle class with a comfortable life...


.

 

[Mr Moose]

Some of the most stupid people I've ever known were middle class with a comfortable life...
.

Yes. This demographic voted leave in droves, not because they felt the pinch, but because they simply like their piss kept on the boil.

 

[seventh bullet]

Good post. A better read than this daft deification of straight talking (white) working class folk.

It's a road to nowhere as most working class black or Asian people voted to remain. Are they less good at spotting BS? I very much doubt it.

There was no good answer to the question, because it was asked within the straitjacket of scarcity and insecurity that no simple answer breaks through.

We need a much better politic than hating liberals all day long.

Where is this deification? And which posters have not included black and Asian wc?

We need a much better politics than liberalism.

 

[DotCommunist]

'the white working class' is a nasty little phrase that has become currency among commenteriat. From where I am stood there is no value in descibing the people you want to call racist so. Class is not colour, I've laboured alongside people of every hue. What does it matter? (in terms of work obvs) We all draw the same pittance for the same work etc.

we have a common cause and the endless navel gazing of liberals who wish to exclude class-or rather not exclude it but put it in a seperate box along with other comfortably defined boxes. Its not an identity group, capital doesn't care who unloads the lorries or picks the fruit. S'all labour to them.

 

[redsquirrel]

Its not an identity group,

This is, again, at the core of the divide between class-based politics and liberalism, a divide that some insist doesn't exist.

 

[Mr Moose]

Where is this deification? And which posters have not included black and Asian wc?

We need a much better politics than liberalism.

I agree with your last point. Liberals want nice politics to exist alongside subjugation. Those nice values are liked by many people of every class, but won't work without real opposition to the marketisation of everything.

But white working class has been very much implied here - the liberals are not said to be sneering at minorities for the brexit vote, because minorities overwhelmingly didn't vote for it.

People who are put off left wing politics often cite that it appears hateful to them, they fear being seen as 'unsound'. This sneering at sneery 'liberals' (some of whom don't have a pot to piss in either) has limited value. It's a comfort only when no other argument is being won. Somehow all sides need joining against those with the power.

 

[DotCommunist]

yes but we've see the 'compromise' of liberalism in its grotesque glory written across most of modern history.

 

[DotCommunist]

This is, again, at the core of the divide between class-based politics and liberalism, a divide that some insist doesn't exist.

every time I hear the tradition of Liberalism mentioned I see the face of Simon Sebag Montefiore in my head. He really is the smuggest example of its historical transformation into a byword for 'fair play and decency' imo. Like the field was ever level

 

[seventh bullet]

Your earlier post was just an underhand, sideways swipe at other unnamed posters by implying they are talking about only white people, and with some insulting caricature of the average (white) working class person being thick and narrow-minded. Personally I have become far grumpier and sanguinary as I near middle age, and more and more convinced that only a violent revolution will radically overhaul society. I probably won't live to see it, or before I end up getting killed in the process, but that's what I think.

yes but we've see the 'compromise' of liberalism in its grotesque glory written across most of modern history.

Nah, it's often not about compromise, which is linked to the soppy, nice and fluffy self-mythology after the theft, murder, famine, war, genocide etc has given it space. It's about the strong doing as they please to the weak. Liberalism is a 'monster' of history.

 

[DotCommunist]

Nah, it's often not about compromise, which is linked to the soppy, nice and fluffy self-mythology after the theft, murder, famine, war, genocide etc has given it space

well this is why the ' ' over the word compromise in my post mr bullet. The self mythologising of a truly evil doctrine given a virtuose face by those who didn't lose half their family to the irish famine for an example

 

[Raheem]

Your earlier post was just an underhand, sideways swipe at other unnamed posters by implying they are talking about only white people, and with some insulting caricature of the average (white) working class person being thick and narrow-minded.

People in this thread have been eulogising leave voters as acting out of some sort of special inaccessible wc wisdom. In case that's not just obvious bullshit, it is worth pointing out that it's a wisdom that seems to have largely evaded the non-white portion of the wc.

 

[DotCommunist]

People in this thread have been eulogising leave voters as acting out of some sort of special inaccessible wc wisdom

quote the eulogies to your myth

 

[Raheem]

w/c voters were least likely to be "conned" as they didn't believe the promises/threats being made and were e a lot more cynical about any effect that their vote might have whilst m/c voters were more likely to connect their vote with the potential changes (for good or ill) being promised by the various campaign

I read a book by Steven Rose years ago. He mentioned an alternative IQ test based on seeing through bullshit (I may be paraphrasing a little), in which the working class tended to score higher.

 

[seventh bullet]

People in this thread have been eulogising leave voters as acting out of some sort of special inaccessible wc wisdom. In case that's not just obvious bullshit, it is worth pointing out that it's a wisdom that seems to have largely evaded the non-white portion of the wc.

I wouldn't appropriate the proletarian experience of the sixth bullet.

 

[DotCommunist]

so, not eulogizing then. Not at all. Good-o Raheem

 

[Casually Red]

We need a much better politic than hating liberals all day long.

True , but if hating liberals isn't an essential component of this better politic it'll most likely not be better . And be a bit shit .

 

[chilango]

Is that eulogising? Really?

Note also that neither of the quotes you posted mentioned "leave" voters.

 

[Raheem]

so, not eulogizing then. Not at all. Good-o Raheem

Close enough, IMO. But, in any case, why are you choosing to focus on the bit that doesn't matter?

 

[Mr Moose]

Is that eulogising? Really?

Note also that neither of the quotes you posted mentioned "leave" voters.

The whole thread is based around 'views' of leave voters.

 

[Mr Moose]

True , but if hating liberals isn't an essential component of this better politic it'll most likely not be better . And be a bit shit .

Yes, but lots of really ordinary people also despaired of the views articulated by 'leave'. It's not just a commentariat thing.

Let's now play the ball, neo-liberalism and not the man.

 

[chilango]

The whole thread is based around 'views' of leave voters.

Is it?

I voted "remain" fwiw.