Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[butchersapron]

or connable.

 

[treelover]

At the risk of re-awakening a monster... I have never called people stupid over voting Brexit or making other decisions I disagree with. However are we allowed to say that people were conned? This isn't particularly a class issue, or not a working/middle class one. I work in a public sector organisation, my part of it is probably about 50/50 working/middle class. The vast majority are non-unionised, and appear to agree that 'there is no money' to pay them more or make up for the real terms pay cuts of the last 8 years. This is what people being conned looks like. Is it patronising to point out they are being conned? How to talk about it?

This post inspired by this article: Notes from Non-Existence | Mute

Like your comment, but not the article.

 

[treelover]

A close relative from the N.E has recently graduated from Durham, 35,000 in debt, thought he would get a graduate entry post, but is stacking shelves in a supermarket, he accepts it, has he been conned? Time was a pool of educated people with little or poor employment prospects led to social upheaval, what changed?

 

[Pickman's model]

A close relative from the N.E has recently graduated from Durham, 35,000 in debt, thought he would get a graduate entry post, but is stacking shelves in a supermarket, he accepts it, has he been conned? Time was a pool of educated people with little or poor employment prospects led to social upheaval, what changed?

You should point out to him the graduate premium works out at a pound an hour over the course of a 40 year career

Interested to see you thinking about things I was talking about years back.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

At the risk of re-awakening a monster... I have never called people stupid over voting Brexit or making other decisions I disagree with. However are we allowed to say that people were conned?

Much of the "conned" commentary seems basically "look at this obvious lie that was never true and nobody believed, Brexiteers were conned by this, poor sods, it wasn't their fault, they're like children". Maybe a few people believed in "£350m a week for the NHS" but I guarantee that most people didn't (why would they? I thought this was supposed to be all about cynicism about politicians) and at most thought that Brexit would mean more money would be available for domestic spending, which isn't an unjustified position, though you then need to consider who's going to be making the spending decisions.

I voted remain, but I don't feel that I have anything in common with that approach.

 

[Brainaddict]

Time was a pool of educated people with little or poor employment prospects led to social upheaval, what changed?

A good question. I've been reading Richard Hoggart's The Uses of Literacy, which would probably interest you. It's mostly about the replacement of working class culture with an ersatz and twisted version of it, through the mass media. I'd say if you have little culture that's truly your own, you have not much of a base to fight from.

NB. This is not a full answer, just a partial thought based on current reading.

 

[Pickman's model]

what changed?

£35k in debt, yer man's not going to rock the boat is he?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Much of the "conned" commentary seems basically "look at this obvious lie that was never true and nobody believed, Brexiteers were conned by this, poor sods, it wasn't their fault, they're like children". Maybe a few people believed in "£350m a week for the NHS" but I guarantee that most people didn't (why would they? I thought this was supposed to be all about cynicism about politicians) and at most thought that Brexit would mean more money would be available for domestic spending, which isn't an unjustified position, though you then need to consider who's going to be making the spending decisions.

I voted remain, but I don't feel that I have anything in common with that approach.

I agree about the specific claims, but the vaguer 'let's take back control' did seem to resonate at a gut level. All the polling I've seen lends support to that, as does speaking to the few people I know (London bubblista!!) who voted leave, such as my parents.

 

[Brainaddict]

Much of the "conned" commentary seems basically "look at this obvious lie that was never true and nobody believed, Brexiteers were conned by this, poor sods, it wasn't their fault, they're like children". Maybe a few people believed in "£350m a week for the NHS" but I guarantee that most people didn't (why would they? I thought this was supposed to be all about cynicism about politicians) and at most thought that Brexit would mean more money would be available for domestic spending, which isn't an unjustified position, though you then need to consider who's going to be making the spending decisions.

I think the con being referred to was bigger than that. It was "Vote leave and there will be more jobs and your standard of living and wages/conditions can start going up again." There were hundreds of ways of promising this, using a mixture of the particular lies you mention, and bigger lies, open or implied, about what would happen if we restricted migration, or got rid of regulation. The overall message was strong I think, and was believed by many people.

The Lexiters on here mostly knew this wasn't the case of course - or not in the short to medium term (I get the sense many of them think the situation can be retrieved in the longer term). But millions were, I think, fairly conned.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the con being referred to was bigger than that. It was "Vote leave and there will be more jobs and your standard of living and wages/conditions can start going up again." There were hundreds of ways of promising this, using a mixture of the particular lies you mention, and bigger lies, open or implied, about what would happen if we restricted migration, or got rid of regulation. The overall message was strong I think, and was believed by many people.

The Lexiters on here mostly knew this wasn't the case of course - or not in the short to medium term (I get the sense many of them think the situation can be retrieved in the longer term). But millions were, I think, fairly conned.

Nothing fair about it

 

[butchersapron]

I agree about the specific claims, but the vaguer 'let's take back control' did seem to resonate at a gut level. All the polling I've seen lends support to that, as does speaking to the few people I know (London bubblista!!) who voted leave, such as my parents.

What does resonate a gut level mean? It's obv intended to differentiate from a head level.

Same fucking game.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think the con being referred to was bigger than that. It was "Vote leave and there will be more jobs and your standard of living and wages/conditions can start going up again." There were hundreds of ways of promising this, using a mixture of the particular lies you mention, and bigger lies, open or implied, about what would happen if we restricted migration, or got rid of regulation. The overall message was strong I think, and was believed by many people.

The Lexiters on here mostly knew this wasn't the case of course - or not in the short to medium term (I get the sense many of them think the situation can be retrieved in the longer term). But millions were, I think, fairly conned.

There is also a very broad analysis that can be done on a referendum, which can be shorn of its content, more or less, which says that the 'change' option will be selected far more often by those who feel badly served by the current system and so have little stake in keeping it, and 'no change' will be selected by those who feel the current system has its merits and have something to lose from changing it.

This applies to all of us, too, so I'm not pointing over there and saying 'you were conned': it informs the gut reaction to things upon which we build our intellectual justifications.

 

[butchersapron]

I think the con being referred to was bigger than that. It was "Vote leave and there will be more jobs and your standard of living and wages/conditions can start going up again." There were hundreds of ways of promising this, using a mixture of the particular lies you mention, and bigger lies, open or implied, about what would happen if we restricted migration, or got rid of regulation. The overall message was strong I think, and was believed by many people.

The Lexiters on here mostly knew this wasn't the case of course - or not in the short to medium term (I get the sense many of them think the situation can be retrieved in the longer term). But millions were, I think, fairly conned.

After all that waffle it's the same shit. Thick people, thinking with their gut. It never ever ends no matter how nice and understanding you try to be.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What does resonate a gut level mean? It's obv intended to differentiate from a head level.

Same fucking game.

See my next post. I firmly include myself in this.

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree about the specific claims, but the vaguer 'let's take back control' did seem to resonate at a gut level.

I presume you refer to the mythical 'arsequake'

 

[butchersapron]

There is also a very broad analysis that can be done on a referendum, which can be shorn of its content, more or less, which says that the 'change' option will be selected far more often by those who feel badly served by the current system and so have little stake in keeping it, and 'no change' will be selected by those who feel the current system has its merits and have something to lose from changing it.

This applies to all of us, too, so I'm not pointing over there and saying 'you were conned': it informs the gut reaction to things upon which we build our intellectual justifications.

Some of us can't. We stop at the gut. We're over represented in all sorts of categories.

 

[Pickman's model]

There is also a very broad analysis that can be done on a referendum, which can be shorn of its content, more or less, which says that the 'change' option will be selected far more often by those who feel badly served by the current system and so have little stake in keeping it, and 'no change' will be selected by those who feel the current system has its merits and have something to lose from changing it.

This applies to all of us, too, so I'm not pointing over there and saying 'you were conned': it informs the gut reaction to things upon which we build our intellectual justifications.

I would like to see you build an intellectual justification.

 

[butchersapron]

There is also a very broad analysis that can be done on a referendum, which can be shorn of its content, more or less, which says that the 'change' option will be selected far more often by those who feel badly served by the current system and so have little stake in keeping it, and 'no change' will be selected by those who feel the current system has its merits and have something to lose from changing it.

This applies to all of us, too, so I'm not pointing over there and saying 'you were conned': it informs the gut reaction to things upon which we build our intellectual justifications.

This isn't an analysis and it's not one made by those supporting the thickos dun it argument. That includes you.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This isn't an analysis and it's not one made by those supporting the thickos dun it argument. That includes you.

You could have the grace to admit you'd misunderstood me. But hey ho.

 

[butchersapron]

You could have the grace to admit you'd misunderstood me. But hey ho.

If i thought i had i would gave said so. Immediately and without bottling it.

 

[J Ed]

On the subject of being conned.

Couldn't it be said that the middle-class liberals who still, after the ravages of austerity waged across Southern Europe, believe that the EU exists to uphold some vague form of social democracy both abroad and in Britain have been 'conned' far more than a Leave voter who is fully aware of the limits of our own politicians but was consciously throwing a spanner in the works of our political system?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I agree about the specific claims, but the vaguer 'let's take back control' did seem to resonate at a gut level. All the polling I've seen lends support to that, as does speaking to the few people I know (London bubblista!!) who voted leave, such as my parents.

I think the con being referred to was bigger than that. It was "Vote leave and there will be more jobs and your standard of living and wages/conditions can start going up again." There were hundreds of ways of promising this, using a mixture of the particular lies you mention, and bigger lies, open or implied, about what would happen if we restricted migration, or got rid of regulation. The overall message was strong I think, and was believed by many people.

The Lexiters on here mostly knew this wasn't the case of course - or not in the short to medium term (I get the sense many of them think the situation can be retrieved in the longer term). But millions were, I think, fairly conned.

I thought a lot of people I talked to before the vote who were voting brexit were wrong about how things would play out. That was about it. They weren't conned by anything that had been said in the campaign; nobody even mentioned any of the bullshit that was floating around, and if I ever referred to it they were pretty insulted that I might suggest they'd been influenced by that shit. (I mentioned it as an indication of what the post-referendum political result would be rather than what they believed, I'd like to say here, and I think that's been borne out.) That's why I can't get behind the "conned" thing.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

On the subject of being conned.

Couldn't it be said that the middle-class liberals who still, after the ravages of austerity waged across Southern Europe, believe that the EU exists to uphold some vague form of social democracy both abroad and in Britain have been 'conned' far more than a Leave voter who is fully aware of the limits of our own politicians but was consciously throwing a spanner in the works of our political system?

Depends what they thought. I got equally irritated by people who didn't think I was aware of the various actions of the various E-bodies.

 

[J Ed]

Depends what they thought. I got equally irritated by people who didn't think I was aware of the various actions of the various E-bodies.

Yes, I think that does sound like it would be irritating but at the same time there is no media driven narrative that Remain voters were conned into voting against their own interests etc

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Yes, I think that does sound like it would be irritating but at the same time there is no media driven narrative that Remain voters were conned into voting against their own interests etc

Not a mainstream one, no, which is why I'm not amazingly annoyed. It was only ever on a personal conversation level.

It's not like the reaction to it has, or was ever going to have, anything to do with why anyone voted for or against, anyway. Voted to remain: you approve of the existing capitalist system though are probably a bit racist. Voted to leave: you approve of capitalism but maybe want it reformed a bit to have more local people doing it and are also really racist.

 

[General Veers]

The leave the European Union vote (I hate the term Brexit) has brought out some xenophobes but it has also flushed out a lot of so-called lefties as well. Their narrative that all leave voters are racist and as thick as pig shit for siding with racists shows their own personal prejudices, not the perceived ones of over 17 million people. Have a read of Jon Rogers' Unison blog (easily searchable). His contempt for the working class is palatable, almost as much as his slavish adherence to the neo-liberal EU and all the shitting on workers that it does.

We don't need Eddie Izzard and all those other patronising twats whining to make leave voters reconsider their decision, in fact it reinforces it. This vote for me has thrown up a whole layer of people on the left that have shown their true colours. The people who they claim to stand up for have rejected what they think is right so they come up with all kinds of theories and throw around lots of insults to justify their own arrogance. Some of the biggest leave margins came from former mining areas in the North, people who are no strangers to class struggle and standing up to the full force of the state.

To see academic lefties whose main occupational hazzard is a paper cut go to town on working class people in current and former manual occupations is sickening and does not bode well for the future of socialist politics.

 

[J Ed]

To see academic lefties whose main occupational hazzard is a paper cut go to town on working class people in current and former manual occupations is sickening and does not bode well for the future of socialist politics.

Or, indeed, the future. So much of British politics has just become a crap slanging match between right-wing Brexiters and right-wing Remainers.

 

[krtek a houby]

The leave the European Union vote (I hate the term Brexit) has brought out some xenophobes but it has also flushed out a lot of so-called lefties as well. Their narrative that all leave voters are racist and as thick as pig shit for siding with racists shows their own personal prejudices, not the perceived ones of over 17 million people. Have a read of Jon Rogers' Unison blog (easily searchable). His contempt for the working class is palatable, almost as much as his slavish adherence to the neo-liberal EU and all the shitting on workers that it does.

We don't need Eddie Izzard and all those other patronising twats whining to make leave voters reconsider their decision, in fact it reinforces it. This vote for me has thrown up a whole layer of people on the left that have shown their true colours. The people who they claim to stand up for have rejected what they think is right so they come up with all kinds of theories and throw around lots of insults to justify their own arrogance. Some of the biggest leave margins came from former mining areas in the North, people who are no strangers to class struggle and standing up to the full force of the state.

To see academic lefties whose main occupational hazzard is a paper cut go to town on working class people in current and former manual occupations is sickening and does not bode well for the future of socialist politics.

When people march against the elected govt of the UK; would you say they are prejudiced against the wishes of the electorate?

 

[General Veers]

When people march against the elected govt of the UK; would you say they are prejudiced against the wishes of the electorate?

No, not at all. The Tories getting in on 20-odd percent isn't a resounding majority of the electorate. I've marched against the elected government many times but it was more for the issues and policies they were pursuing although I do miss on occasion the jovial outpouring of rage that went with "Maggie Maggie Maggie, Out Out Out".

This vote to leave the EU was different. There were no seats, no votes wasted, no multitude of candidates or options. It was a simple leave or stay where every vote counted. A simple majority from one side beat a minority from another (albeit a big one). Those that didn't vote and are now whining, well it's tough titty, everyone had a chance to participate and for the first time in years I felt my vote actually counted.

It's the manouvering, the throwing the toys out of the pram and finally putting down their traditional constituency by a big chunk of the left that I find distasteful.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, not at all. The Tories getting in on 20-odd percent isn't a resounding majority of the electorate. I've marched against the elected government many times but it was more for the issues and policies they were pursuing although I do miss on occasion the jovial outpouring of rage that went with "Maggie Maggie Maggie, Out Out Out".

This vote to leave the EU was different. There were no seats, no votes wasted, no multitude of candidates or options. It was a simple leave or stay where every vote counted. A simple majority from one side beat a minority from another (albeit a big one). Those that didn't vote and are now whining, well it's tough titty, everyone had a chance to participate and for the first time in years I felt my vote actually counted.

It's the manouvering, the throwing the toys out of the pram and finally putting down their traditional constituency by a big chunk of the left that I find distasteful.

You could see this during the campaign,when the guardian said in as many words that people voting leave were thick racist chavs