Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[andysays]

What should we be doing, do you think?

For instance

Short answer: Provide a fucking alternative.

So people aren't left with a choice limited to (racist/sexist etc etc) populism or the status quo.

How to create that alternative is the problem.

I don't think it (Trump or Brexit or UKIP or whatever...) was (just) about racism/racists. I will continue to work in my community, in my workplace etc. advocating an alternative to both kneejerk populism and the status quo that is based upon practical examples of solidarity, mutual aid and so forth. Albeit in the most micro of ways. I will continue to believe, and advocate, that a better world is possible. I will also continue to believe that the "stupid" or "racist" people voting for Brexit for UKIP for Trump etc. also want a better world. However distorted or damaged a form that desire currently takes. And that its worth looking for common ground, for practical, achievable victories that show that world is possible. Mostly though, that will consist of talking to, and listening to, the people around me.

It occurs to me that the "logging out" they advocate is something I (accidentally) did a few years back when I gradually stopped doing activist stuff and looked around and realised that none of my contemporaries social were activists (or even Political) anymore either. A break or rupture confirmed when I moved back here, and didn't (Urban aside) plug back into my old networks. Anyone that's known me on here for the duration might notice how that's really changed my arguments. I still "have the same politics" but but it manifests in a radically different way now. I'd argue that this "logging out" is something more should do. Abandon your vehicles not your destination (Sorry, a pretty wooly post I know , but...)

This is the sort of approach which chilango has been advocating and actually following for a while and, for what it's worth, I broadly agree with and am following it myself.

But he's also inviting and encouraging others to offer their perspectives and opinions, whether they agree with him or not. Simply saying, in effect (and you're not the only one)

but what do you think?

isn't really an adequete response, either to the thread or more importantly to the situation we all find ourselves in, whoever's "fault" we think it might be.

 

[redsquirrel]

I didn't say anything about a majority. But you can't be surprised or particularly appalled that some people, faced with the prospect of Trump, would hold their nose and put all their support behind Clinton. We seem quite happy acknowledging the reverse.

I didn't claim otherwise I, I simply pointed out the the size of the population who fervently supported a lesser evil vote was, at max, just over 25%. In reality probably significantly less than that. Indeed the weak support of the "keep Trump out" vote, was probably one of the factors that cost Clinton the election.

 

[Dogsauce]

I didn't claim otherwise I, I simply pointed out the the size of the population who fervently supported a lesser evil vote was, at max, just over 25%. In reality probably significantly less than that. Indeed the weak support of the "keep Trump out" vote, was probably one of the factors that cost Clinton the election.

The low turnout may be partly explained by the electoral college system, in some states your vote really doesn't matter because the winner is a foregone conclusion. I know of people who didn't bother voting because of this. I suspect turnout will be higher in swing states (assume these numbers are available - I'm going to look now).

 

[redsquirrel]

The low turnout may be partly explained by the electoral college system, in some states your vote really doesn't matter because the winner is a foregone conclusion. I know of people who didn't bother voting because of this. I suspect turnout will be higher in swing states (assume these numbers are available - I'm going to look now).

Sure, but that's irrelevant to the point under debate. If there was strong widespread support for a "keep Trump out" vote then Clinton wouldn't have lost. The recent electoral success of the hard right has been precisely because this vote is no longer turning out in the numbers it used to.

 

[Dogsauce]

(Estimated) turnouts by state are here:

2016g - United States Elections Project

Not sure it really backs up my thoughts, doesn't help that I can't remember all of the swing states!

 

[mauvais]

I didn't claim otherwise I, I simply pointed out the the size of the population who fervently supported a lesser evil vote was, at max, just over 25%. In reality probably significantly less than that. Indeed the weak support of the "keep Trump out" vote, was probably one of the factors that cost Clinton the election.

I don't disagree, but it's not what I'm on about, which is merely that presented with someone who backed Clinton and/or is upset that she in particular lost, blaming them for an entirely predictable and understandable behaviour is self-destructive folly.

Not pivotal percentages of the electorate, just people and their opinions.

 

[Manter]

For instance




This is the sort of approach which chilango has been advocating and actually following for a while and, for what it's worth, I broadly agree with and am following it myself.

But he's also inviting and encouraging others to offer their perspectives and opinions, whether they agree with him or not. Simply saying, in effect (and you're not the only one)

isn't really an adequete response, either to the thread or more importantly to the situation we all find ourselves in, whoever's "fault" we think it might be.

I asked the question for a couple of reasons;
- because I read almost everything in politics and am interested to learn what other people's views and perspectives and suggestions are
- because on here (unless you are one of very few) sticking your neck out with an opinion is either brave or stupid or both

 

[brogdale]

(Estimated) turnouts by state are here:

2016g - United States Elections Project

Not sure it really backs up my thoughts, doesn't help that I can't remember all of the swing states!

This may help?

 

[Manter]

I've posted somewhere on one the threads...

...but I don't have some great blueprint, I do think we need to be going back to the basics though and trying to build right from the bottom.

We need to rebuild networks of solidarity and mutual aid in the community, in the work place, and start to "do" the alternative to both neo-liberalism and populist reaction.

Given how (for many of us) fragmented our workplaces and communities are, the first steps are going to be small. Restoring some sort of sense of the "collective" by small acts demonstrating the value of solidarity and mutual aid. Getting to know your neighbours, your workmates, the other parents at the school gates, talking (and listening) about concerns and desires, discovering what we have in common and what small things we can do together to act on these.

Dog shit politics, as its sometimes known. i.e. if there's a problem with your street being covered by dogshit, getting together and cleaning it up whilst at the same time building that awareness that it's US that's doing it, not those in power.

Acting, and talking about the hows and whys of those acts.

The talking (and listening) is important otherwise it just becomes voluntarism/big society/broom waving. Thats the big danger with this.

But there's no shortcuts.

Where these networks are so eroded, they need to be rebuilt.

That's interesting. It makes a lot of sense but feels slow given we have a resurgent and normalised far right, right now.

I am in no way saying it shouldn't happen... and it chimes with a conversation the Syrian and I had this weekend where he said the only way to defeat anti refugee feeling is through stories and connections (it's easy to hate a faceless hoard of refugees but difficult to hate Tito who is the same age as your son and obsessed with lego, or Ezee with the lopsided smile who watched his mum and sister die). (The same thing applies across different communities; refugees is just the group/issue I know well.)

But right now as we watch stuff that was shocking become mainstream (e.g. Erosion of refugee rights and rise in detention; Palin was crazy 8 years ago now she may end up as one of the saner members of the US government; rise of racist violence across Europe) just being a bit kinder locally feels like an 'also' rather than the main point of attack. I just don't know what the main point of attack should be tbh.

 

[chilango]

I asked the question for a couple of reasons;
- because I read almost everything in politics and am interested to learn what other people's views and perspectives and suggestions are
- because on here (unless you are one of very few) sticking your neck out with an opinion is either brave or stupid or both

I'm happy with being asked. Even though it's not a great answer ("Great answers" make me suspicious anyway!). I'm also grateful to andysays for digging out my quotes, saved me the hassle!

Part of the reason I keep asking what people are going to do based upon what they are arguing on these threads is that for me, choosing to focus on the class element of what is happenning (rather than racism or sexism or whatever, which are also part of the mix) is that that gives me a basis to work from.

A point of commonality. Something to organise around that might change things. Something that gives an "in" into what I'm doing and what I plan to do.

So, I can talk to people who voted UKIP (for example) with this as my starting point, a shared concern or grevience, that we (me and the UKIP voter) have in common. We can talk about how this manifests in real life for us both and what we can do together about it.

I can't do that (I don't think) if we take their "racism" as the starting point.

I'd be interested in hearing from those who are placing the racist etc. content of these types of votes at the forefront of their arguments plan to do with this conclusion to try and change things.

I hope that makes sense?

 

[killer b]

I think everyone needs to take a long hard look at what we're doing tbh. The advocates of class politics have been saying the same thing for as long as I can remember, and while their analysis has been proved right time and time again, there's little comfort in being right while the world burns around you.

Demanding a change in tactics and focus from others while ploughing on with the same tactics and focus which have had very... limited success for the past generation seems a bit pointless.

 

[chilango]

That's interesting. It makes a lot of sense but feels slow given we have a resurgent and normalised far right, right now.

I am in no way saying it shouldn't happen... and it chimes with a conversation the Syrian and I had this weekend where he said the only way to defeat anti refugee feeling is through stories and connections (it's easy to hate a faceless hoard of refugees but difficult to hate Tito who is the same age as your son and obsessed with lego, or Ezee with the lopsided smile who watched his mum and sister die). (The same thing applies across different communities; refugees is just the group/issue I know well.)

But right now as we watch stuff that was shocking become mainstream (e.g. Erosion of refugee rights and rise in detention; Palin was crazy 8 years ago now she may end up as one of the saner members of the US government; rise of racist violence across Europe) just being a bit kinder locally feels like an 'also' rather than the main point of attack. I just don't know what the main point of attack should be tbh.

Your first paragraph is exactly how I feel. Its the key to winning this IMO.

The second shows the need people feel for a shortcut, a crisis response. A kneejerk sticking plaster.

However, the problem (as i see it) is we've been doing that for 20 years or so now. It isn't working. Its actually making things worse. It may have held things off, a bit, but we've failed to take any advantage of the breathing space its bought us.

Y'know, the BNP lost all their councillors, but the vote that elected them is still there, voting UKIP I suspect. And if we somehow "stop UKIP", they'll still be there.

 

[chilango]

I think everyone needs to take a long hard look at what we're doing tbh. The advocates of class politics have been saying the same thing for as long as I can remember, and while their analysis has been proved right time and time again, there's little comfort in being right while the world burns around you.

Demanding a change in tactics and focus from others while ploughing on with the same tactics and focus which have had very... limited success for the past generation seems a bit pointless.

Agreed.

 

[LDC]

I'm happy with being asked. Even though it's not a great answer ("Great answers" make me suspicious anyway!). I'm also grateful to andysays for digging out my quotes, saved me the hassle!

Part of the reason I keep asking what people are going to do based upon what they are arguing on these threads is that for me, choosing to focus on the class element of what is happenning (rather than racism or sexism or whatever, which are also part of the mix) is that that gives me a basis to work from.

A point of commonality. Something to organise around that might change things. Something that gives an "in" into what I'm doing and what I plan to do.

So, I can talk to people who voted UKIP (for example) with this as my starting point, a shared concern or grevience, that we (me and the UKIP voter) have in common. We can talk about how this manifests in real life for us both and what we can do together about it.

I can't do that (I don't think) if we take their "racism" as the starting point.

I'd be interested in hearing from those who are placing the racist etc. content of these types of votes at the forefront of their arguments plan to do with this conclusion to try and change things.

I hope that makes sense?

Are you part of a political organization or group chilango? One of the conclusions I've been coming to slowly over recent years, and more concretely in the last year, is that we need to be in organizations/groups to work effectively. Question for me now is which one?

 

[chilango]

Are you part of a political organization or group chilango? One of the conclusions Ive been coming to slowly over recent years, and more concretely in the last year is that we need to be in organizations/groups to work effectively. Question for me now is which one?

No.

No, I'm not (well I'm in a union).

I've been in a few in the past though, with mixed experiences tbh.

 

[LDC]

Yup, totally mixed experiences. For me now the alternative of being an individual trying to get things done, with all the problems that entails (including being part of a wider political culture where that is the norm) is far worse though. As I've mentioned here before I think there really needs to be a shift away from activist individualism (and campaign/issue based politics) and the way that's the dominant model for the radical left, and for me being part of a long term group/organization that works things through collectively with a long term and radical perspective is part of the answer.

Like I said, need to find one, and it's a pretty sad state of affairs when it's hard to find a relevant, dynamic, politically sound, and active group to get involved with.

 

[Dogsauce]

It's hard because the right is more determined and ruthless, and happier to forego the truth. While there's plenty of dishonesty on the 'left' side of things too (the Canary etc.) it gets called out and challenged more. I don't really see this much from the right. Plus there are no left-wing billionaires feeding money into grass roots groups, new media etc. (other than the tamest centrist 'liberal left'). How is that imbalance corrected?

 

[chilango]

Yup, totally mixed experiences. For me now the alternative of being an individual trying to get things done, with all the problems that entails (including being part of a wider political culture where that is the norm) is far worse though. As I've mentioned here before I think there really needs to be a shift away from activist individualism (and campaign/issue based politics) and the way that's the dominant model for the radical left, and for me being part of a long term group/organization that works things through collectively with a long term and radical perspective is part of the answer.

Like I said, need to find one, and it's a pretty sad state of affairs when it's hard to find a relevant, dynamic, politically sound, and active group to get involved with.

Problem is I don't see any groups that are "fit for purpose" really. I've a feeling we'd need to start from scratch and very consciously not start yet another left/anarcho type group.

Who? How? and What?

Big questions.

 

[LDC]

Have you been following the Angry Workers of the World stuff?

Angry Workers of the World

 

[chilango]

Have you been following the Angry Workers of the World stuff?

No. Never heard of them. Will google.

 

[butchersapron]

No. Never heard of them. Will google.

I was going to mention them in that conversation we had last week - really interesting stuff.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Demanding a change in tactics and focus from others while ploughing on with the same tactics and focus which have had very... limited success for the past generation seems a bit pointless.

This is important ime. It comes across as smug and inflexible. It says do as I say, not as I do. It demands a change in behaviour from others yet sits back and refuses to change anything about itself. As such, it positions itself outside of what is happening to all of us, telling others what they are doing wrong yet not offering up anything it can do better.

 

[treelover]

I've been guilty of all the things redsquirrel talks about, lesser-evilism, anything but Trump etc. I do get that this is diametrically opposed to a vision of revolutionary far reaching long term change, that it offers no real answer and even perpetuates the problem. But in the absence of any sign (that I'm aware of) that there exists even the seeds of a viable popular alternative to the rise of the hard right - which terrifies me, properly frightens me in a way that is probably not quite rational more emotional - I just feel helpless tbh.
What makes me sad on top of that is how often (on here) things descend into personal attacks or grudges held for years, might be an inevitable part of the culture of a small message board like this I don't know but it's just so pointless and unproductive.

The IWCA tried in a small way, plenty of small groups have hosted meeting about the issues that affect the 'left behinds', benefits, zhc, failing care systems, the liberal left just don't attend, the attraction of showing their compassion limited as these issues are too dour, not global enough.

 

[chilango]

Have you been following the Angry Workers of the World stuff?

Angry Workers of the World

Thanks.

Interesting (well, to me at least!), will read more.

But (and this is imo a pivotal problem) no real use for me talking to my workmates/neighbours etc. And I guess, again, we'll get caught up in a big discussion about class, who and what exactly do we mean by working class these days?

Few of the people I know would consider themselves "working class' and certainly wouldn't identify with the Angry Workers stuff. Yet, from the perspective of w/c vs. MOP blah blah blah, they are w/c. But there's no real need/incentive/point in self-defining thus. Class means something else to most people. Something more "cultural", more "identity" based. I don't agree (I argue enough on here about this), but IRL doing the small things I talk about, I have to use a different vocabulary. I need it to be framed in ways that I can talk to the people I meet IRL, on the school gate, at work, putting the bins out.

I was listening to some interview the other day where, without batting an eyelid, blue-collar workers (auto, steel etc.) were being described as "middle class Americans".

Kinda illustrates the problem.

Don't know what the answer is though.

 

[chilango]

This is important ime. It comes across as smug and inflexible. It says do as I say, not as I do. It demands a change in behaviour from others yet sits back and refuses to change anything about itself. As such, it positions itself outside of what is happening to all of us, telling others what they are doing wrong yet not offering up anything it can do better.

Is anyone doing that?

I'm not.

I hope?

 

[treelover]

I've posted somewhere on one the threads...

...but I don't have some great blueprint, I do think we need to be going back to the basics though and trying to build right from the bottom.

We need to rebuild networks of solidarity and mutual aid in the community, in the work place, and start to "do" the alternative to both neo-liberalism and populist reaction.

Given how (for many of us) fragmented our workplaces and communities are, the first steps are going to be small. Restoring some sort of sense of the "collective" by small acts demonstrating the value of solidarity and mutual aid. Getting to know your neighbours, your workmates, the other parents at the school gates, talking (and listening) about concerns and desires, discovering what we have in common and what small things we can do together to act on these.

Dog shit politics, as its sometimes known. i.e. if there's a problem with your street being covered by dogshit, getting together and cleaning it up whilst at the same time building that awareness that it's US that's doing it, not those in power.

Acting, and talking about the hows and whys of those acts.

The talking (and listening) is important otherwise it just becomes voluntarism/big society/broom waving. Thats the big danger with this.

But there's no shortcuts.

Where these networks are so eroded, they need to be rebuilt.

See my post above about lack of support, attendance, etc for basic issues like social security, housing, care system, etc, though IDB has stimulated interest for the first.

 

[chilango]

The IWCA tried in a small way, plenty of small groups have hosted meeting about the issues that affect the 'left behinds', benefits, zhc, failing care systems, the liberal left just don't attend, the attraction of showing their compassion limited as these issues are too dour, not global enough.

but it doesn't matter that the liberal-left didn't attend does it? they're not the audience surely that we need.

 

[Ole]

I think everyone needs to take a long hard look at what we're doing tbh. The advocates of class politics have been saying the same thing for as long as I can remember, and while their analysis has been proved right time and time again, there's little comfort in being right while the world burns around you.

Demanding a change in tactics and focus from others while ploughing on with the same tactics and focus which have had very... limited success for the past generation seems a bit pointless.

It's not all doom... The chief American advocate of class politics is the most popular political figure in the country by a distance, and it is as conclusive as it can be that he would've taken Trump/anyone to the cleaners in the general election. There is as much to work with over there as there has been in a very long time.

 

[chilango]

See my post above about lack of support, attendance, etc for basic issues like social security, housing, care system, etc, though IDB has stimulated interest for the first.

...to add. Years ago when I was doing anti-JSA stuff to advertise a meeting to set something up, we leafletted door to door every street in my neighbourhood. Hundreds of houses. We leafletted outside the job centre. A dozen or so people showed up. They weren't activists. But we'd reached them.

Similarly, iirc thats how the IWCA operated, the long slog of door knocking and leaflet pushing.

We can't just take the line of "if we build it, they will come".

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is anyone doing that?

I'm not.

I hope?

I am speaking generally, not at you.

To some extent, yes this is a common experience even here on Urban too.

It's incredibly frustrating. Championing the rights of the W/C yet speaking in theories/terms that the average w/c person I am in contact with daily wouldn't connect to or care for.