Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[killer b]

Dougald Hine's latest is great, if you want helpful analysis. Certainly not much point in carrying on with this tedious back and forth.

When the maps run out – Redrawing The Maps

 

[CrabbedOne]

On 3QD What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class

...
One little-known element of that gap is that the white working class (WWC) resents professionals but admires the rich. Class migrants (white-collar professionals born to blue-collar families) report that “professional people were generally suspect” and that managers are college kids “who don’t know shit about how to do anything but are full of ideas about how I have to do my job,” said Alfred Lubrano in Limbo. Barbara Ehrenreich recalled in 1990 that her blue-collar dad “could not say the word doctor without the virtual prefix quack. Lawyers were shysters…and professors were without exception phonies.” Annette Lareau found tremendous resentment against teachers, who were perceived as condescending and unhelpful.

Michèle Lamont, in The Dignity of Working Men, also found resentment of professionals — but not of the rich. “ can’t knock anyone for succeeding,” a laborer told her. “There’s a lot of people out there who are wealthy and I’m sure they worked darned hard for every cent they have,” chimed in a receiving clerk. Why the difference? For one thing, most blue-collar workers have little direct contact with the rich outside of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. But professionals order them around every day. The dream is not to become upper-middle-class, with its different food, family, and friendship patterns; the dream is to live in your own class milieu, where you feel comfortable — just with more money. “The main thing is to be independent and give your own orders and not have to take them from anybody else,” a machine operator told Lamont. Owning one’s own business — that’s the goal. That’s another part of Trump’s appeal.
...

A sort of mutant Blue Collar Septic version of the Corinthian Spirit perhaps: pointy headed aspiration bad, hard work and lots of luck good. Well perhaps that's the only way the American Dream can be remotely credible.

 

[two sheds]

It's not an analysis - it's just another attack on other posters.

Yes well even if it was, it's not like he doesn't get attacked in the odd post? So you'd feel like he could occasionally have a go back without comment.

One thing i don't understand on urban is the treatment of people like treelover who posts some really good links and bimble who is clearly also interested in how we get out of the shit we're in.

They, like I, don't necessarily know the correct phrasings of questions but you and Pickers and people have clearly been studying this shit for years so it's not unsurprising that you can run rings round us with your clever Socratic arguments.

The responses to Trump by 'liberal' americans seem quite reasonable to me. They're trying to make sense of what happened. I can't actually see some of the comments being criticized on here as much different from how we talked about the tories after the election.

If there's an alternative view then fine lets do it with discussion rather than dismissive comments and abuse.

 

[J Ed]

Dougald Hine's latest is great, if you want helpful analysis. Certainly not much point in carrying on with this tedious back and forth.

When the maps run out – Redrawing The Maps

Thanks for posting this. It is a very smart piece.

 

[redsquirrel]

Plenty of "rust, race and ignorance" maps in the Sunday's; this from the Observer...

Extra votes for those with college degrees!

 

[killer b]

Thanks for posting this. It is a very smart piece.

He generally has an illuminating take on this kind of stuff.

 

[friendofdorothy]

In my experience privileged people are often very stupid, but they don't like it when less privileged people call them stupid, they call it breach of the peace, public nuicance, libel, etc.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes well even if it was, it's not like he doesn't get attacked in the odd post? So you'd feel like he could occasionally have a go back without comment.

One thing i don't understand on urban is the treatment of people like treelover who posts some really good links and bimble who is clearly also interested in how we get out of the shit we're in.

They, like I, don't necessarily know the correct phrasings of questions but you and Pickers and people have clearly been studying this shit for years so it's not unsurprising that you can run rings round us with your clever Socratic arguments.

The responses to Trump by 'liberal' americans seem quite reasonable to me. They're trying to make sense of what happened. I can't actually see some of the comments being criticized on here as much different from how we talked about the tories after the election.

If there's an alternative view then fine lets do it with discussion rather than dismissive comments and abuse.

The odd go? That's exactly what he gets. More than the odd go. He posted this whilst threatening to kill himself i posted ever again.

If you want to bring others in then do so. It's well out of order to do so on the back of a long running problem to attack others.

Fucking passive aggressive lovely liberals.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The odd go? That's exactly what he gets. More than the odd go. He posted this whilst threatening to kill himself i posted ever again.s.

Problem is, the stuff you're responding to here is nothing like that. Pretty hard to read the post you refer to as an attack on other posters. In fact, I think it's just plain wrong to do so. And you're shitstirring by linking to that.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I don't understand this obsession some posters have with some other posters. All most of us are to each other are just words on a forum. I just post any shit I feel contributes to the thread & laugh at my detractors. I hold no grudges & have nobody on ignore ever.

 

[Jurrihahay]

I don't understand this obsession some posters have with some other posters. All most of us are to each other are just words on a forum. I just post any shit I feel contributes to the thread & laugh at my detractors. I hold no grudges & have nobody on ignore ever.

I like everybody on here, most of all my detractors.

 

[butchersapron]

Problem is, the stuff you're responding to here is nothing like that. Pretty hard to read the post you refer to as an attack on other posters. In fact, I think it's just plain wrong to do so. And you're shitstirring by linking to that.

It not being that is nothing like that is the attack ffs. You are such a dozy cunt it's unbelievable.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

So are you ba. Nothing personal mind.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Wait, what? Are people calling each other stupid on this thread? Unbelievable.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

The thread title is certainly not wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

Wait, what? Are people calling each other stupid on this thread? Unbelievable.

In what way?

 

[treelover]

Dougald Hine's latest is great, if you want helpful analysis. Certainly not much point in carrying on with this tedious back and forth.

When the maps run out – Redrawing The Maps

Dougald wanted everyone to leave the cities and go back to pre-civilisation, even ran a festival based on it.

 

[killer b]

Dougald wanted everyone to leave the cities and go back to pre-civilisation, even ran a festival based on it.

I didn't know about that - some of his writing does get too hippy for my tastes though, so I'm not particularly surprised. This is a great piece regardless. I'll take insight where I can get it.

 

[treelover]

On 3QD What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class
A sort of mutant Blue Collar Septic version of the Corinthian Spirit perhaps: pointy headed aspiration bad, hard work and lots of luck good. Well perhaps that's the only way the American Dream can be remotely credible.

Some of this wouldn't be amiss in the late 19th C when the concerned philanthropists' would go exploring and then recording in the East end, etc.

 

[butchersapron]

Some of this wouldn't be amiss in the late 19th C when the concerned philanthropists' would go exploring and then recording in the East end, etc.

Minus the -anthropy bit. Much of the liberal response - and liberal goggles - mirrors the hard IQ/race realist types far right types. Certain people in certain situtations...

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't understand this obsession some posters have with some other posters. All most of us are to each other are just words on a forum. I just post any shit I feel contributes to the thread & laugh at my detractors. I hold no grudges & have nobody on ignore ever.

You can't see why being called an apologist for sexual assault and/or racism might not create some bad feeling?

 

[J Ed]

Some of this wouldn't be amiss in the late 19th C when the concerned philanthropists' would go exploring and then recording in the East end, etc.

Speaking of anthropology, I had no idea people ate blood soup.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

You can't see why being called an apologist for sexual assault and/or racism might not create some bad feeling?

Just tell'em to fuck off. Works for me.

 

[brogdale]

Extra votes for those with college degrees!

John Stuart Mill's plural voting system; liberals, eh?

 

[J Ed]

Extra votes for those with college degrees!

 

[butchersapron]

alt-right and liberal left increasingly secretly the same. Just without that horrible race stuff.

 

[redsquirrel]

Just tell'em to fuck off. Works for me.

Which is pretty much what BA was doing and got criticised for.

 

[treelover]

For me and I know you will disagree, the left right across the western world has largely abandoned the poor, the unemployed, etc for identity politics, plus the next big thing, epitomised by the SWP bandwagon jumping, but which has spread to the liberal left, it has been very interesting to see tens of thousands of the latter going to see I Daniel Blake and saying, "we didn't know it was this bad", well, to a point, but they largely didn't attend the meetings that were hosted around welfare, etc at the time. Some of us hosted a meeting on the Crisis In Social Care this weekend, a very topical issues, there were a number of service users, carers, etc, but a total absence of the sort of people, activists, etc who attend in large numbers events on refugees, EDl protests, migrants, anti-war, Syria, Climate Change,(add your own hot button issue)etc. This is what one attendee wrote.

"
I went to the 'Sheffield Adult Social Care in Crisis' meeting this afternoon. Hearing people speak, it quickly became clear that the session was aptly titled as the current system is undergoing a crisis which has left people without the care they need.

Many of us have been moved by the story of Daniel Blake and it's fair to say that service users in the meeting today had just as upsetting and troubling stories to tell. Severely ill and disabled people in Sheffield are trying to navigate a confusing and uncaring bureaucracy that has left many without adequate care or, in some cases, no care at all.

Social care is an important aspect of the current social security regime that we should not overlook. I would strongly encourage Momentum members to read up in this issue and, when possible, attend meetings like the one today. It's no exaggeration to say that the provision of adult social care is an issue of life and death.

A report of the meeting will be released which will outline the issues raised today."

 

[killer b]

Have you read the latest IWCA missive treelover ? They give a lot of background on the abandonment you speak of.

IWCA - Independent Working Class Association - national website

BTW, I think you'd probably find your posts better received if you didn't a) assume everyone is going to disagree with you before you've even posted, and b) managed to avoid referencing the SWP, except in posts where they have some actual relevance.

 

[seventh bullet]

The IWCA is the only org I have taken seriously over the years.