Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Harry describes the cotton sheets on his bed in Balmoral as massive darned & 100 years old.
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Prince Harry
- Thread starter T & P
- Start date
bimble
floofy
Whats the measure of this scale of aristocratness?
Is it just how long you've had your country pile ?
moochedit
I'm not feeding seagulls
How many generations your furnature passed down from.
I don’t know that they do - my mother got away with it - her favourite aunt is an aristo (having married into it, and therefore her closest cousins are titled). Her grandmother was the bastard of a younger son, and she was fine with it too - my mother was her favourite granddaughter, my brother and I her favourite great grandchildren. They all seem to have seen it as a totally suitable career for a relative who had to work rather than something shaming (marrying my father on the other hand, was not considered suitable, and they may have had a point). I think people just enjoy being nasty - and will always find a way to do so - my understanding of the ‘doors to manual’ stuff is not that Kate Middleton mother was cabin crew per se, but that she was cabin crew from a workaday suburb in Middlesex.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
bimble
floofy
If it’s that then it’s in a way about just Britishness, your forebears having been on this island and undisturbed for a long time? Nobody who had to leave anywhere in a hurry can be posh then.
moochedit
I'm not feeding seagulls
No idea. It wasn't a serious post
bimble
floofy
Go on then, what does it mean to be aristocratic what's the measure? If the spencers were moreso than the queen what actually is it? It can't all be down to table manners and antique linens.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Yes. Whoever it was a couple of pages ago who said the royals are looked down on by some sections of the aristocracy was right. They’re seen as a bit vulgar, tasteless, suburban, uncultured. The Spencer’s in particular are considered higher than many families, level with ducal ones, because their title doesn’t have an ‘of’ designation. They aren’t Earls of somewhere, they are simply Earls of their own name (earls of are considered lesser) - and they descend from illegitimate royal Stuart lines - ‘the problem with Charles and Diana’s marriage was that Diana married beneath herself’ was the joke. However, the Windsors themselves are also descended directly from the Stuarts, which people forget in the enthusiasm to dismiss them as Germans. Anyway, this is a weird and unimportant diversion. Who really wants to examine the competing social levels within the aristocracy?
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
I remember reading about the "hidden female dynasties of history" and it mentioned her family as one.
ouirdeaux
Caring, Understanding, Non-judgemental Type
You, at least, and maybe some others here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It comes down to land, no? As in the landed gentry. And it's not land your family bought from someone else. It was granted. It's a feudal categorisation, essentially, hence it is also intimately linked to the army - you need an army at some point to take land without paying for it and loyalty to the forces of force will be expected.
bimble
floofy
me i want to!
And i don't understand what you've said.
Some earls are just earls and not earls of a place and that makes them more proper? Give us an example. I thought all earls were earls of somewhere, which place was gifted them by a dead king for favours rendered.
That’s posher than shopping for it.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Apparently her family went much further back...compared with Charles'
What to Know About the Royal Blood in Princess Diana’s Family
She was seen as "the girl next door" at the time of her fairytale wedding, but that door was located in an unusually elite neighborhood
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.95)]She has more English royal blood in her veins than does Prince Charles, her 16th cousin once removed. All of it flowing from illegitimate unions. Four of her ancestors were mistresses to English Kings. Three dallied with Charles II (1630-85), a compulsive philanderer whose amorous activities produced more than a quarter of the 26 dukedoms in Great Britain and Ireland. The fourth royal paramour, Arabella, daughter of the first Sir Winston Churchill, was a favorite of James II (1633-1701) and bore him a daughter. In short, while Diana’s blood may run blue, even purple, scarlet women and black sheep have added to its color…
Others of Diana’s kinsmen made their mark in worldly affairs, many as great statesmen. George Washington is an eighth cousin seven times removed, and through the wife of an eccentric American great-great-grandfather, Diana is related to Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Calvin Coolidge, Millard Fillmore, Rutherford B. Hayes, Grover Cleveland and Franklin D. Roosevelt. Sir Winston Churchill (middle name: Spencer) is a cousin, as is former Prime Minister Sir Alec Douglas-Home. Scholarly limbs include Historian Henry Adams, Philosopher Bertrand Russell and Lexicographer Noah Webster. Theatrical boughs: Humphrey Bogart and Lillian Gish.[/COLOR]
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
But what makes them more aristocratic than the royal family?
How is aristocraticness determined?
Earl Spencer
Earl of Dartmouth
Spencer is socially higher, more prestigious, - as you can tell because it’s without the of.
bimble
floofy
well yeah i get that bit, but if diana was posher than the queen i have a lot to learn.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If your estate was granted to your family by William the Bastard for services rendered, you're as aristo as they get.
blairsh
pale knuckle grip on this steering wheel
How many of your own blood relatives you've banged?
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
I haven't Googled this, but it is possible that the Spencers have been nobility for longer than our current royal house.
The current Donald Cameron of Lochiel, Known simply as 'Lochiel' is IIRC the 29th, the title runs from the 1500s. The first son is always Donald.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
IIRC a lot of the noble houses of Britain descend from Henry VIIIs bastard children.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
The Windsors were considered blowins.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Bloody nouveaux. Probably didn't even speak French.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
By whom, and why?
bimble
floofy
i am not convinced by this. Have googled your first Earl Spencer and
"On 3 April 1761, he was created Baron Spencer of Althorp .."
and then he got to be an earl the next year, from political manouverings and a curious will, and yes it no longer says 'of althop' but why do you say that this lack of a geographical designation is the measure of how far up the tree they are? Is this something you learned growing up or is there an authority which says so?
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T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Don’t know about the Spencers, but in Spain they always used to say when the late Duquesa de Alba was alive that she had so many aristocratic titles (or perhaps one title but very high ranking, not sure how the aristocratic hierarchy really works), if she meet The Queen, it is the latter who ought to be curtsying to the former, in theory at least.
I suspect it’s bollocks but I have seen that claim made in the Spanish media so often, I kind of wonder…
ETA: Ah, apparently it was a misconception. The Duquesa de Alba still wins the most aristocratic titles in the world award, though- truly the Lionel Messi of aristocracy
Did the Queen of England really have to bow before the Duchess of Alba?
Cayetana de Alba’s many titles led to more than a few myths about protocol
english.elpais.com
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That’s bollocks though. It only goes back further because the Windsors are the female line, whereas the Spencer’s are the unbroken male line. It’s pure misogyny. The Windsors are also direct descendants of James VI and I (and therefore the oldest English, Scottish, Welsh, and other European royal lines) - but via his daughter rather than his son. So, lesser, but equally related. Misogynist bollocks.Apparently her family went much further back...compared with Charles'
What to Know About the Royal Blood in Princess Diana’s Family
She was seen as "the girl next door" at the time of her fairytale wedding, but that door was located in an unusually elite neighborhoodtime.com
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.95)]She has more English royal blood in her veins than does Prince Charles, her 16th cousin once removed. All of it flowing from illegitimate unions. Four of her ancestors were mistresses to English Kings. Three dallied with Charles II (1630-85), a compulsive philanderer whose amorous activities produced more than a quarter of the 26 dukedoms in Great Britain and Ireland. The fourth royal paramour, Arabella, daughter of the first Sir Winston Churchill, was a favorite of James II (1633-1701) and bore him a daughter. In short, while Diana’s blood may run blue, even purple, scarlet women and black sheep have added to its color…
Others of Diana’s kinsmen made their mark in worldly affairs, many as great statesmen. George Washington is an eighth cousin seven times removed, and through the wife of an eccentric American great-great-grandfather, Diana is related to Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Calvin Coolidge, Millard Fillmore, Rutherford B. Hayes, Grover Cleveland and Franklin D. Roosevelt. Sir Winston Churchill (middle name: Spencer) is a cousin, as is former Prime Minister Sir Alec Douglas-Home. Scholarly limbs include Historian Henry Adams, Philosopher Bertrand Russell and Lexicographer Noah Webster. Theatrical boughs: Humphrey Bogart and Lillian Gish.[/COLOR]
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