Post-exit immigration policy - what should it be?

[William of Walworth]

And for what its worth I agree 100% with FridgeMagnet 's post just above.

There's a reason I scarcely ever post about immigration on here. Mostly because the whole subject and most of its politics are depressing ....

 

[smokedout]

Oh come on. You called her evil. I dont know much about her bar advocating the death penalty before she got her current job. Was that it?

She used to work in PR for the tobacco industry. And then as Employment Minister she presided over Atos and sanctions that led to people's deaths. Now she's a Tory Home Secretary. I'm not sure how helpful the concept of evil is generally but if evil does exist she's definitely in the ballpark.

 

[smokedout]

Oh, and she was part of this which I suggest show a good idea of where her thinking is at:

David Cameron was today challenged by rising star Tory MPs to tackle “lazy” Britain — and bring in tough new work reforms.

The “young guns” from the new Right of the party called for a culture of “graft, risk and effort” to propel Britain into the “superleague” of nations.

They branded Britons among “the worst idlers” in the world and said the country should emulate the hard work ethic of Asia.

“Too many people in Britain, we argue, prefer a lie-in to hard work,” they said. The call for action is being made by five Tories from the “class of 2010” — Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Chris Skidmore and Elizabeth Truss.

Tackle 'lazy' Britain, fellow Tories tell David Cameron

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Patel is a big fan of the Hindu nationalist, Muslim-scapegoating authoritarianism, bordering fascism, of the Modi regime. She has been a fan of Netanyahu, and was of course one of the “Britannia Unchained” crew - their book famously complaining that one of Britain’s big problems is that the working class are “lazy”......... Hence the crap about getting the “economically inactive” back to work.

The Tories are also rolling out a programme, the name of which I forget, to “encourage” (force?) people in their fifties and sixties to work more hours - of course completely ignoring the reasons why many older people work part-time or take flexible retirement if they can ( amongst other reasons are the inadequacies to the point of looming collapse for much of the social care system in the UK, and the rampant, difficult to challenge age discrimination in the labour market)
Patel really is a piece of work.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Sad state of affairs when unions are openly pondering on the problem of industry being unable to find labour that will work for below UK subsistance wages

 

[William of Walworth]

The Tories are also rolling out a programme, the name of which I forget, to “encourage” (force?) people in their fifties and sixties to work more hours - of course completely ignoring the reasons why many older people work part-time or take flexible retirement if they can ( amongst other reasons are the inadequacies to the point of looming collapse for much of the social care system in the UK, and the rampant, difficult to challenge age discrimination in the labour market)
Patel really is a piece of work.

That getting pensioners/approaching-pension-age-people , to work more, is all a part of a longer-term bunch of propaganda going back years, and not just Tory , to spread the notion that it's increading pensioners' "freedom" to work longer hours, work for more years, stay working up to and after 70 ...

I'm relatively lucky as an old-style Civil Servant with an old-gold CS pension upcoming (I'm now 57 and half) that even as ill-paid as I now am (part-time and much lower grade than before 2008) , I'll be able to reduce my hours at 60** quite significantly, thank fuck.

**Only those of us who were CS prior to 2006 (I think) have this .... fewer and fewer of us as time goes on

But any pensioner or near-pensioner, who works longer, increases their hours, and retires later, other than because they have to (note emphasis!) is in my view half-insane.

</ETA : apologies for derail, I was responding to Jeremiah18.17 , but still .... >

 

[The39thStep]

They will get them they just have to change the approach. Pay more, guaranteed run of work. More attention to health and safety.

Absolutely subsidised transport or pick up points , make hours 9-5 , come up with a strategy for making a career in agriculture attractive and rewarding . Could be done collectively or through the employers associations .Real opportunity to link it to a market that cares about where fruit and veg come from and the increase in veganism , plant based food etc and pays its workers a proper wage.[/QUOTE]

 

[The39thStep]

Sad state of affairs when unions are openly pondering on the problem of industry being unable to find labour that will work for below UK subsistance wages

Track record of the established unions in agriculture , hotel and catering is absolutely shocking . I’ll give the new unions ( even if their leadership is pro EU) some credit in having a go at organising those who need unions the most .

 

[ska invita]

What annoys me about statements like this is the notion migrants are "good" because they do unappealing work. Migrants are just people who are as "good" as anyone else, no matter what work they do, or don't do. Fuck making work the value of everything ..... Valuing being the literal practice of points based immigration.

To be expected from the state, but not reinforced by dogooders

 

[andysays]

What annoys me about statements like this is the notion migrants are "good" because they do unappealing work. Migrants are just people who are as "good" as anyone else, no matter what work they do, or don't do. Fuck making work the value of everything ..... Valuing being the literal practice of points based immigration.

To be expected from the state, but not reinforced by dogooders

Yeah, and I'll bet neither she nor any of the friends she's supposedly asking for have ever even considered doing any of those jobs.

 

[The39thStep]

Who’ll feed, bathe and care for our most vulnerable?

Good question and the new immigration rules for once gives us an opportunity to do more than tweet handringing platitudes about whether its skilled or not skilled and look at its bare bones. At the moment its a workforce composed of 80% UK and 10% EU and 10% other , predominantly women ,a quarter of whom are over 55 years old, 25% of the total workforce are on zero hour contracts which is over 350,000 workers, nearly half of domicillary care workers on zero hour contracts , median wage £8 an hour , 50% of care workers held a relevant adult social care qualification. Staff turn over is at 35%.
This is an industry worth £40billion a year dominated by private equity since it was outsourced under Labour that has little foward planning lots of risk and debt and pays its under qualified little hope of progression workforce a pittance.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Track record of the established unions in agriculture , hotel and catering is absolutely shocking . I’ll give the new unions ( even if their leadership is pro EU) some credit in having a go at organising those who need unions the most .

I talked, at length, yesterday about the need for a serious approach from the Labour movement on this. The two major obstacles to this both stem from the bureaucratic leadership of it. Problem 1 - the absence of a serious politics that leads you to start from the perspective of the chief executive of a hotel chain or global construction form. Problem 2 is exactly this. Solving it is a prerequisite, even if benign employment and unions laws were present. I have zero faith in the clowns who run unions to deliver hence why I think we need a statist solution in the form of new style wages board/Manpower Services Commission.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What annoys me about statements like this is the notion migrants are "good" because they do unappealing work. Migrants are just people who are as "good" as anyone else, no matter what work they do, or don't do. Fuck making work the value of everything ..... Valuing being the literal practice of points based immigration.

To be expected from the state, but not reinforced by dogooders

Also Cornish soil is no good for cauliflowers. No doubt that was just a bit of 'insert rural-sounding place' 'insert agricultural product' for the sake of some throwaway rhetoric, but she's given the game away there.

 

[editor]

Also Cornish soil is no good for cauliflowers..

That's not true: Cornish coastal climate helps Asda farmer grow British cauliflowers all year - ASDA Corporate but broccoli is what it was famous for.

 

[editor]

I genuinely worry about the future of the NHS.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Good question and the new immigration rules for once gives us an opportunity to do more than tweet handringing platitudes about whether its skilled or not skilled and look at its bare bones. At the moment its a workforce composed of 80% UK and 10% EU and 10% other , predominantly women ,a quarter of whom are over 55 years old, 25% of the total workforce are on zero hour contracts which is over 350,000 workers, nearly half of domicillary care workers on zero hour contracts , median wage £8 an hour , 50% of care workers held a relevant adult social care qualification. Staff turn over is at 35%.
This is an industry worth £40billion a year dominated by private equity since it was outsourced under Labour that has little foward planning lots of risk and debt and pays its under qualified little hope of progression workforce a pittance.

There was an industry representative on Today yesterday, who was obviously negative about the proposals. Pay was mentioned once, almost in passing, and she indignantly responded "well we all pay at least minimum wage! Sometimes people even get paid more!" And that was that.

 

[Steel Icarus]

View attachment 199177

I genuinely worry about the future of the NHS.

"However, the government says the threshold would be as low as £20,480 for people in "specific shortage occupations" - which currently include nursing, civil engineering, psychology and classical ballet dancing - or those with PhDs relevant to a specific job."

Immigration: No visas for low-skilled workers, government says

Ministers urge firms to stop relying on "cheap labour", but critics warn of damage to the economy.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 199177

I genuinely worry about the future of the NHS.

i don't think you have to worry, it's all too clear

 

[editor]

"However, the government says the threshold would be as low as £20,480 for people in "specific shortage occupations" - which currently include nursing, civil engineering, psychology and classical ballet dancing - or those with PhDs relevant to a specific job."

Immigration: No visas for low-skilled workers, government says

Ministers urge firms to stop relying on "cheap labour", but critics warn of damage to the economy.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm sure it will work wonderfully, all the jobs will be filled and the process won't put people off at all. And we've also got Boris's wonderful US deals with the NHS to look forward to!

Any news on all those billions that the NHS was supposed to benefit from once we left the EU?

 

[Pickman's model]

"However, the government says the threshold would be as low as £20,480 for people in "specific shortage occupations" - which currently include nursing, civil engineering, psychology and classical ballet dancing - or those with PhDs relevant to a specific job."

Immigration: No visas for low-skilled workers, government says

Ministers urge firms to stop relying on "cheap labour", but critics warn of damage to the economy.

www.bbc.co.uk

so we're rather relying on the rest of the world to produce these nurses as there is no way that that number will be supplied from within the uk

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'm sure it will work wonderfully and not put people off at all.

I'm not saying it's all rainbows, just that tweets from randoms with no evidence is pointless imo

 

[editor]

Bad news for curry fans

We were – and still are – struggling to get chefs to Britain from south Asia as the rules state you have to pay a salary of £35,000 to offer a curry chef’s job to a south Asian: a sum that is simply unthinkable for a large number of smaller restaurants. ..

Indeed, Brexit is already harming the nation’s curry houses. Many of the estimated 10,000 EU citizens employed in our industry have quit their jobs amid continued uncertainty over their future. The treatment of these workers from other countries and the rise in xenophobia since the referendum should shame us all, particularly those of us from an immigrant background.

I swallowed the Brexit lies. Now I regret telling curry house workers to vote leave | Brexit | The Guardian

Boris Johnson and Priti Patel said we would be able to employ more chefs from south Asia, says chef Oli Khan

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Steel Icarus]

It's shit, innit
Been shit for along time, though

 

[pesh]

good news about the classical ballet dancers though.

 

[The39thStep]

 

[treelover]

View attachment 199180
so we're rather relying on the rest of the world to produce these nurses as there is no way that that number will be supplied from within the uk

bringing back the Nursing Bursary would help

 

[treelover]

View attachment 199206

some of these people seem to revel in pointing out how 'workshy' people are in the UK, but never mention the wages or conditions.

 

[Pickman's model]

bringing back the Nursing Bursary would help

how? how would it help? would it magic up the capacity to train tens of thousands of nurses?

 

[Spymaster]

There was a short lived thread about banning linking to The Sun, not long ago. All the shit links on this thread though, are to The Guardian

 

[not a trot]

good news about the classical ballet dancers though.

The landlord of the local was only saying the other night, we never seem to get any classical ballet dancers in here these days, where have they all gone.