Post-exit immigration policy - what should it be?

[editor]

It might mean a different set of workers continue to be exploited by capital in the way that the EU not only did nothing to stop but actively encouraged.

Everything I've heard from the Tories - with their talk of filling the gap with the nation's 'economically-inactive' - suggests workers will continue to be exploited, with the addition of people on benefits being pushed into shitty jobs for the same shitty pay and conditions. I really see no reason to be optimistic about anything with the Tories in charge of a post Brexit, more monocultural Britain.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'm not optimistic. I'm not sure the people on urban who voted to leave feel about it like you think they do.

 

[Shechemite]

“Every bar, gallery, every cafe, every venue and just about every everywhere I go”

quite

 

[Shechemite]

people on benefits being pushed into shitty jobs for the same shitty pay and conditions.

Nah, it will be for worse pay and conditions

We are expected to work for free at present either through formal volunteering (“you are ill? Go and do some volunteering, that will recover you” - yeah thanks NHS) or the endless demands placed on us by the state to make up for austerity by providing free care support to those in our communities

getting local providers/authorities to provide paid work isn’t appreciated by said providers/authorities

 

[editor]

“Every bar, gallery, every cafe, every venue and just about every everywhere I go”

quite

*post deleted

 

[Proper Tidy]

Nobody on here thinks things will get better under the tories. Apart from maybe a couple of resident tory bells. But putting key stuff back under democratic control means there is the possibility of future gains which didn't exist when these things were determined by the EU and its unelected executive. This is what people mean when they say that what it means now is we have to fight. Not for a labour govt, although that would be helpful particularly one that was at least lacking insulation against pressure from below, but much wider than that

 

[Pickman's model]

Everything I've heard from the Tories - with their talk of filling the gap with the nation's 'economically-inactive' - suggests workers will continue to be exploited, with the addition of people on benefits being pushed into shitty jobs for the same shitty pay and conditions. I really see no reason to be optimistic about anything with the Tories in charge of a post Brexit, more monocultural Britain.

tbh it doesn't matter whether the uk stays or goes, one constant will be that workers will continue to be exploited. indeed the system only works as long as workers continue to be exploited. that's capitalism. that's how it works. the exploitation of workers and the sale of commodities - goods or services - at a profit.

 

[Shechemite]

Nobody on here thinks things will get better under the tories. Apart from maybe a couple of resident tory bells. But putting key stuff back under democratic control means there is the possibility of future gains which didn't exist when these things were determined by the EU and its unelected executive. This is what people mean when they say that what it means now is we have to fight. Not for a labour govt, although that would be helpful particularly one that was at least lacking insulation against pressure from below, but much wider than that

crisis is both risk and opportunity innit

 

[treelover]

Nobody on here thinks things will get better under the tories. Apart from maybe a couple of resident tory bells. But putting key stuff back under democratic control means there is the possibility of future gains which didn't exist when these things were determined by the EU and its unelected executive. This is what people mean when they say that what it means now is we have to fight. Not for a labour govt, although that would be helpful particularly one that was at least lacking insulation against pressure from below, but much wider than that

Interview: Lisa Nandy "surprised" by "level of misogyny" in leadership race - LabourList

Lisa Nandy has revealed, in an exclusive interview with LabourList, that she has been “surprised” at the “level…

labourlist.org

Not sure where the fight will come from, Lisa Nandy talks here about how many times she is asked about Palestine, etc, Womens's Safe spaces, etc, at hustings

 

[Pickman's model]

Interview: Lisa Nandy "surprised" by "level of misogyny" in leadership race - LabourList

Lisa Nandy has revealed, in an exclusive interview with LabourList, that she has been “surprised” at the “level…

labourlist.org

Not sure where the fight will come from, Lisa Nandy talks here about how many times she is asked about Palestine, etc, Womens's Safe spaces, etc, at hustings

i hope you weren't expecting 'the fight' to come from the labour party

 

[Proper Tidy]

Interview: Lisa Nandy "surprised" by "level of misogyny" in leadership race - LabourList

Lisa Nandy has revealed, in an exclusive interview with LabourList, that she has been “surprised” at the “level…

labourlist.org

Not sure where the fight will come from, Lisa nandy talks here about how many times she is asked about Palesting, etc, at hustings

Yeah I saw that. Its difficult to see where the fight will come from isn't it. Maybe a lightning rod that will bring people in and focus minds, I dunno. I hope whatever happens all the labour stuff dampens down instead of sucking everybody into internal party stuff, that would help

 

[Pickman's model]

Interview: Lisa Nandy "surprised" by "level of misogyny" in leadership race - LabourList

Lisa Nandy has revealed, in an exclusive interview with LabourList, that she has been “surprised” at the “level…

labourlist.org

Not sure where the fight will come from, Lisa Nandy talks here about how many times she is asked about Palestine, etc, Womens's Safe spaces, etc, at hustings

i am surprised you haven't mentioned misogyny, given its prominence in that article.



on second thoughts, no, i am not surprised at your silence on the subject.

you're not interested in forms of oppression other than those you experience for which you routinely demand action from other people.

 

[treelover]

Give it a rest will you..

 

[Shechemite]

*post deleted

izzit?

 

[Shechemite]

Give it a rest will you..

Thing is TL, you seem like a sound fella, but you have no insight into your self, and why you get the responses you do. It’s maddening to witness

 

[Shechemite]

Interview: Lisa Nandy "surprised" by "level of misogyny" in leadership race - LabourList

Lisa Nandy has revealed, in an exclusive interview with LabourList, that she has been “surprised” at the “level…

labourlist.org

, Lisa Nandy talks here about how many times she is asked about Womens's Safe spaces, etc, at hustings

Those pesky wimmin eh Treelover. They all hate the disabled don’t they

fucks sake

 

[editor]

tbh it doesn't matter whether the uk stays or goes, one constant will be that workers will continue to be exploited. indeed the system only works as long as workers continue to be exploited. that's capitalism. that's how it works. the exploitation of workers and the sale of commodities - goods or services - at a profit.

I agree completely. so nothing changes because of Brexit for workers, but we get all the other shit that accompanies it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Give it a rest will you..

but what did you take from the article?

Interview: Lisa Nandy "surprised" by "level of misogyny" in leadership race - LabourList

Lisa Nandy has revealed, in an exclusive interview with LabourList, that she has been “surprised” at the “level…

labourlist.org

Not sure where the fight will come from, Lisa Nandy talks here about how many times she is asked about Palestine, etc, Womens's Safe spaces, etc, at hustings

you didn't mention that she was saying she and rlb have been asked about trans stuff and women's safe spaces more than the male candidate in the election.

ergo you haven't really engaged with the article perhaps because you aren't that interested in what she's saying or why she's saying it.

 

[Marty1]

Lib Dem Caroline Voaden is asking the big questions (on behalf of a friend) leading with sandwich fillers!

 

[Steel Icarus]

We've had that.

 

[Steel Icarus]

And it was patronising liberal fuckery the first time.

 

[Gramsci]

Brexit in itself doesnt improve the situation re zero hour contracts but it can provide the opportunity for unions to organise and put pressure purely because of the potential labour shortgage or fear of a labour shortage .As others notably Smokeandsteam have argued its about how the working class can fight back , an idea sadly that many posters seem to have forgotten about or want to ignore.

Going back to editor comments.

We both live in Brixton area. The Editor has done a lot to support the Ritzy cinema workers campaign for the Living Wage and better conditions of work in Brixton Buzz. So I think the Ed (and me) are well aware of how the working class can fight back even if we are Remainers.

One of the aspects of that campaign was that a big part of it was the people from other EU countries involved. As they were significant part of the workforce. As a cinema goer I knew them.

As one said us Poles get accused of lowering wages and taking jobs and here we are campaigning for better pay and conditions. A campaign which is about the working class. Whether they are British or from another EU country. A campaign for Living Wage in London that linked to other groups of workers in different sectors. A lot of them immigrants to this country.

The opportunity to put pressure on business was always there. Bringing in immigration controls should not be used to kick-start pressure.

 

[Gramsci]

That's the real issue. People have got caught up in talking about the slight liberalisation of work visas when the real issue is the end of the UK 2 tier immigration system. One where the UK had one set of immigration rules for predominantly white EEA nations with few restrictions, and a extremely restrictive and draconian system for everyone else. Now all but one of those EEA nations are going to be in the extremely harsh and draconian system. I've heard a lot from the left bemoaning the end of a two tier immigration system. I've heard little about how a extremely restrictive and draconian system can be made less so.

However on the issue of the end of free movement for commonwealth citizens having nothing to do with the EU- I think that's a pretty ahistorical take. The same piece of legislation that put the final nail in the coffin for free movement from commonwealth countries also laid the immigration ground works for the UK joining the EEC (1). The EU has frequently required new members to close open boarders, regularise migration and bring in harsh restrictions. Similar policies were demanded with Spain closing down migration from North Africa and the EU Commission supervising Poland's restrictive new immigration rules and closure of the board with Ukraine (2).

Sorry not ignoring your post. Interesting stuff. Rather big reading list . Started reading the first one.

I've made my position clear on immigration controls. Even though I know its utopian.

I've read part of first pdf. The final nail in the coffin one. That removing rights of Commonwealth subjects was influenced by entering European Community.

Look I'm no fan of EU. The idea that it was sticking up for human rights and delivering workers rights is misguided.

But , an anecdote, Black British friend of mine at time of referendum said to me the way UKIP were going on about immigration was the same as what his father had to deal with when he came here . For him he thought things had improved. Now this. As the pdf itself as stated immigration has become issue again. This was not lost on my Black British friends who grew up in 70s London. Which was far from a paradise of diversity.

Imo this experience explains the high Remain vote in my area.

As my friend said at time of referendum the way people are going on about Poles is the same as what his father got.

Reading the pdf same old arguments about immigration and pressure on services.

Also sadly more immigration controls were an electoral winner.