Post-exit immigration policy - what should it be?

[William of Walworth]

Somke of the comments about working class, brexiters, etc, are appaling, thick, racist, shouldn't be able to vote, some basically arguing for eugenics, in many ways, the G is now the opposite mirror image of the DM.

You could have done with making it clearer that you were surely talking about Comment is Free (below the line stuff) (?) in that comment, treelover

In terms of actual articles (both reportage and opinion), I haven't seen a single one that's pro-eugenics.
Definitely not so clear-cut on remain focussed articles (of both types) -- there've been plenty of shite ones I'd more than agree . But along with plenty of non-Daily Mailish ones too.

But to me, the real online Guardian problem is below the line/CiF -- to the extent that I never look at anything below the line at all these days. And mainly reading the paper version makes that easy anyway.
Published letters are overwhelmingly critical of artlcles from a more left or more radical PoV (IME and IMO).

Sorry for derail , but "as bad as the Daily Mail" and implying eugenics-wise too, was bound to provoke a response from me, because it's fucking cobblers. In terms of published articles, there've been a fair few outright anti-eugenics pieces.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Thing is, all the arguments - from all quarters - do exactly reduce people to units of labour. It's all framed around economic advantage/disadvantage for the host state (not a great term that but you know what I mean) - would be good if instead there was some thread of debate that was centred on human or social need rather than states and economic advantage. Fucks knows how that could happen though, its a shit show

 

[ska invita]

Thing is, all the arguments - from all quarters - do exactly reduce people to units of labour. It's all framed around economic advantage/disadvantage for the host state (not a great term that but you know what I mean) - would be good if instead there was some thread of debate that was centred on human or social need rather than states and economic advantage. Fucks knows how that could happen though, its a shit show

What was proposed at Labour conference (posted up thread) was a big step in the right direction. Couple that with strengthening worker rights of course.

In other news Home office is officially "institutionally racist". Well im shocked to hear that. Thankfully we have a new system coming in where im sure the wet and white CANZUK Tory dreams won't be allowed to take hold.

 

[editor]

Thing is, all the arguments - from all quarters - do exactly reduce people to units of labour. It's all framed around economic advantage/disadvantage for the host state (not a great term that but you know what I mean) - would be good if instead there was some thread of debate that was centred on human or social need rather than states and economic advantage. Fucks knows how that could happen though, its a shit show

I'm all for people getting fair wedges and a fair slice of the pie - in fact its something I'm passionate about - but I really don't see how Brexit is going to magically improve the lot of low paid workers in any meaningful way at all.

 

[redsquirrel]

Thing is, all the arguments - from all quarters - do exactly reduce people to units of labour. It's all framed around economic advantage/disadvantage for the host state (not a great term that but you know what I mean) - would be good if instead there was some thread of debate that was centred on human or social need rather than states and economic advantage. Fucks knows how that could happen though, its a shit show

Indeed the opposition to this from some unions was appalling, that there will be an "economic cost", that industries "need these workers". It's actually the same politics as the Tories just the other side of the coin.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'm all for people getting fair wedges and a fair slice of the pie - in fact its something I'm passionate about - but I really don't see how Brexit is going to magically improve the lot of low paid workers in any meaningful way at all.

Well putting aside the temporary - eg who govt is, current political trends - it does mean control over migration policy is solely with uk, over which unlike the EU there is some form of democratic control. That must offer some possibilities surely.

But I didn't really mean my comments to be along remain/leave lines or tied to brexit, I just mean the whole way wider debates around migration are framed

 

[editor]

Well putting aside the temporary - eg who govt is, current political trends - it does mean control over migration policy is solely with uk, over which unlike the EU there is some form of democratic control. That must offer some possibilities surely.

But I didn't really mean my comments to be along remain/leave lines or tied to brexit, I just mean the whole way wider debates around migration are framed

The biggest opportunity being talked up by the government right now seems to be getting those pesky 'economically inactive' people into jobs. Or, as I imagine it will turn out for many, "take this shitty job or say goodbye to your benefits."

Bosses aren't suddenly going to become nice because Britain is 'in control' of immigration, they'll just find new ways to exploit those at the bottom, and the government will be clapping them along all the way.

Mark Steel: Soon we’ll all enjoy supermarkets more – once the crowds of low-skilled migrant staff have been deported

From now on, wherever there’s a field of strawberries, instead of letting Romanians muck us about by picking them, the fruit can go rotten so British maggots can have somewhere to live at last

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Proper Tidy]

The biggest opportunity being talked up by the government right now seems to be getting those pesky 'economically inactive' people into jobs. Or, as I imagine it will turn out for many, "take this shitty job or say goodbye to your benefits."

Bosses aren't suddenly going to become nice because Britain is 'in control' of immigration, they'll just find new ways to exploit those at the bottom, and the government will be clapping them along all the way.

Mark Steel: Soon we’ll all enjoy supermarkets more – once the crowds of low-skilled migrant staff have been deported

From now on, wherever there’s a field of strawberries, instead of letting Romanians muck us about by picking them, the fruit can go rotten so British maggots can have somewhere to live at last

www.independent.co.uk

Yeah no shit which is why framing debates around migration which reduce people to profit or loss is a political dead end (or a political dead end for us anyway, its great for them)

 

[captainmission]

Answering the thread question I would say no immigration controls.

Having lived in London years now and worked with a large number of people who are immigrants or had parents who came here my opinion is that immigration policies are never going to be "fair".

The latest one being that its not "fair" that EU people could come instead of Commonwealth citizens. This had nothing to be do with the EU.

The post war Commonwealth was effectively free movement within the Commonwealth. The problem came when people excercised this right and came here.

This free movement was gradually curtailed. in a way that parellels the treatment that EU people are getting more recently.

This country has always had a problem dealing with immigration. Whether its from Ireland , Carribbean or Eastern Europe.

That's the real issue. People have got caught up in talking about the slight liberalisation of work visas when the real issue is the end of the UK 2 tier immigration system. One where the UK had one set of immigration rules for predominantly white EEA nations with few restrictions, and a extremely restrictive and draconian system for everyone else. Now all but one of those EEA nations are going to be in the extremely harsh and draconian system. I've heard a lot from the left bemoaning the end of a two tier immigration system. I've heard little about how a extremely restrictive and draconian system can be made less so.

However on the issue of the end of free movement for commonwealth citizens having nothing to do with the EU- I think that's a pretty ahistorical take. The same piece of legislation that put the final nail in the coffin for free movement from commonwealth countries also laid the immigration ground works for the UK joining the EEC (1). The EU has frequently required new members to close open boarders, regularise migration and bring in harsh restrictions. Similar policies were demanded with Spain closing down migration from North Africa and the EU Commission supervising Poland's restrictive new immigration rules and closure of the board with Ukraine (2).

 

[Cpatain Rbubish]

I think it should be ‘It’s A Knockout’ based...

very British...

 

[TopCat]

Where the hell do you live? Or do you never go out? Just about every bar, gallery, every cafe, every venue and just about every everywhere I go has EU nationals working there!

Zero hours contracts everywhere.

 

[TopCat]

That British workers are too idle to work for nowt in shit conditions, unlike herself, at the coalface of light entertainment and the hardship of having just failed to be a LibDem MP candidate.

Exactly. Only an idiot would fail to see this.

 

[The39thStep]

Dunno if anyone noticed it amidst the 'who's going to pick the cauliflowers in Cornwall' headlines but the Tories are actually increasing the Seasonal Workers Pilot which is mainly for fruit picking from 2500 to 10000 this year.

 

[captainmission]

I guess TopCat is never going to answer these questions, but I'll open it up to others. How many friends would you have lost if this Brexit immigration policy had been in place five or ten years ago?

I wonder how many of the 36,000 dead on the floor of the Mediterranean would have been my friends? I wonder if those detained in an EU sponsor detention camp in Libya could have been my postman/some one i great in the park/mother of a future Home Secretary?

 

[editor]

Zero hours contracts everywhere.

Yep. And you think Brexit will improve this, how?

 

[TopCat]

I wonder how many of the 36,000 dead on the floor of the Mediterranean would have been my friends? I wonder if those detained in an EU sponsor detention camp in Libya could have been my postman/some one i great in the park/mother of a future Home Secretary?

It is remarkable how remainers glossover the terrible price paid daily to maintain fortress europe.
No, stick to complaining about filling in carnet forms. The big issue obv.

 

[editor]

It is remarkable how remainers glossover the terrible price paid daily to maintain fortress europe.
No, stick to complaining about filling in carnet forms. The big issue obv.

So how is Brexit going to improve the lot of people on zero hours contracts?

 

[TopCat]

So how is Brexit going to improve the lot of people on zero hours contracts?

You dont answer any questions put to you on this thread. Yet you expect and demand answers to your facile queries? Is it just your self entitlement driving this?

 

[editor]

You dont answer any questions put to you on this thread. Yet you expect and demand answers to your facile queries? Is it just your self entitlement driving this?

Err, you have repeatedly ignored questions I've put to you several times in this very thread, I guess because they're too tricky for you to answer (like the one above). Oh well. Vent and froth away and throw in some needless personal shit about supposed 'self-entitlement' if it makes you feel better.

 

[TopCat]

So how is Brexit going to improve the lot of people on zero hours contracts?

Certainly the EU would not have done anything about this. Apart from encouraging the spread of zero hours contracts. They fit in with the EU's four freedoms. The freedom of capital being the first.
Amazing the number of self described anti capitalists who fervently support the EU in spite of this "freedom" for Capital. These freedoms define the EU.

 

[editor]

Certainly the EU would not have done anything about this. Apart from encouraging the spread of zero hours contracts. They fit in with the EU's four freedoms. The freedom of capital being the first.
Amazing the number of self described anti capitalists who fervently support the EU in spite of this "freedom" for Capital. These freedoms define the EU.

So you're saying that Brexit is unlikely to make a jot of difference to workers on zero hours contracts, then?

 

[treelover]

You could have done with making it clearer that you were surely talking about Comment is Free (below the line stuff) (?) in that comment, treelover

In terms of actual articles (both reportage and opinion), I haven't seen a single one that's pro-eugenics.
Definitely not so clear-cut on remain focussed articles (of both types) -- there've been plenty of shite ones I'd more than agree . But along with plenty of non-Daily Mailish ones too.

But to me, the real online Guardian problem is below the line/CiF -- to the extent that I never look at anything below the line at all these days. And mainly reading the paper version makes that easy anyway.
Published letters are overwhelmingly critical of artlcles from a more left or more radical PoV (IME and IMO).

Sorry for derail , but "as bad as the Daily Mail" and implying eugenics-wise too, was bound to provoke a response from me, because it's fucking cobblers. In terms of published articles, there've been a fair few outright anti-eugenics pieces.

Sorry forget to add CIF which is a significant error,

though of course the Observer, Polly, etc, endorsed NL's welfare reforms, and there was the In Praise of Duncan Smith euology

 

[TopCat]

So you're saying that Brexit is unlikely to make a jot of difference to workers on zero hours contracts, then?

No I'm not. Do keep up.
If our parliament vote to ban such contracts (it was Labour policy at the last election) then we can do so. If we were still members of the EU, we would not be allowed to ban such contracts as the freedom of capital is untouchable.

 

[The39thStep]

Brexit in itself doesnt improve the situation re zero hour contracts but it can provide the opportunity for unions to organise and put pressure purely because of the potential labour shortgage or fear of a labour shortage .As others notably Smokeandsteam have argued its about how the working class can fight back , an idea sadly that many posters seem to have forgotten about or want to ignore.

 

[TopCat]

Brexit in itself doesnt improve the situation re zero hour contracts but it can provide the opportunity for unions to organise and put pressure purely because of the potential labour shortgage or fear of a labour shortage .As others notably Smokeandsteam have argued its about how the working class can fight back , an idea sadly that many posters seem to have forgotten about or want to ignore.

For sure. Brexit will make it harder to recruit. Employers will have to offer more. They can't just hire more minimum wage EU workers. Unions will leverage labour shortages into better conditions.

 

[editor]

No I'm not. Do keep up.
If our parliament vote to ban such contracts (it was Labour policy at the last election) then we can do so. If we were still members of the EU, we would not be allowed to ban such contracts as the freedom of capital is untouchable.

Except the Tories got in with a massive majority and Labour have little prospect of getting into power, so this is all academic. Don't get me wrong though: I'm against zero hours contracts and have many friends who are forced to work them, but I really don't see Brexit making a jot of difference in the foreseeable future.

 

[editor]

Brexit in itself doesnt improve the situation re zero hour contracts but it can provide the opportunity for unions to organise and put pressure purely because of the potential labour shortgage or fear of a labour shortage .As others notably Smokeandsteam have argued its about how the working class can fight back , an idea sadly that many posters seem to have forgotten about or want to ignore.

I sincerely hope that will happen, but have little optimism of a country-wide working class fight back happening any time soon - eve more so now that Brexit has split communities apart, quite probably for a generation.

 

[treelover]

I wonder if posters remember the UK demographic youth deficit scare about 20 years or more ago, Ministers and pundits going on about having to offfer grade A apprenticeships, bursaries, etc, for young putative workers, what happened to that, FOM?

 

[Steel Icarus]

So you're saying that Brexit is unlikely to make a jot of difference to workers on zero hours contracts, then?

It might mean a different set of workers continue to be exploited by capital in the way that the EU not only did nothing to stop but actively encouraged.

 

[The39thStep]

I sincerely hope that will happen, but have little optimism of a country-wide working class fight back happening any time soon - eve more so now that Brexit has split communities apart, quite probably for a generation.

I dont think there will be a country wide fight back, more a potential of step by step. I'm not sure communities are split apart by Brexit either tbh, most are just glad its finally come to a conclusion either way. i think its taken its toll on some people though I listened to an interesting podcast on this issue BBC Radio 4 - Analysis, Do voters need therapy?