Should the death penalty be reintroduced in the UK?

[Kevbad the Bad]

Well, this is just wrong. It doesn't have to be like that at all. If, for example, the burden of proof became beyond all doubt, you have an automatic safeguard against killing innocent people, and you could reinforce that with sentencing juries, independent commissions, etc. It's really not a good argument.

Now you're just being daft. Our system insists that guilty means guilty. Just think how long it took for the Birmingham Six to prove their innocence. If the death penalty had been around back then they wouldn't have stood a chance. I love the way you add an 'etc' to your list of bureaucratic stages leading up to the execution. You don't really have an answer to how you deal with mistakes, misinformation, deliberate distortion of the truth, establishment denial and populist indifference to potential killing of the wrong people.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It would remove the possibility of executing people who are innocent.

And leave the insults aside please. You know I always wipe the floor with you on this. Let's keep it civilised.

Your arguments are terrible. More holes than a swiss cheese. And they are touchingly naive. That's a kind way to put it.

That isn't intended as a personal insult. It is a comment on a really stupid, naive idea about how the world works.

 

[xenon]

It would remove the possibility of executing people who are innocent.

And leave the insults aside please. You know I always wipe the floor with you on this. Let's keep it civilised.

This is a fantasy though. There will never be a perfect situation. If you accept the possibility some innocent people would be killed, just come out and say it. I will still disagree with you but that is the reality not some utopian perfect logic situation.

 

[ice-is-forming]

lask me ten years ago and I would of said yes

but these days would depend the case

for most murder caes don't think it would give the family of the victims proper closure of the last thing the killer did was taken control of their own future

they removed it from someone else

This is true - maybe part of the application to die by capital punishment could include a perpetrator statement/proposal to the victims loved ones.

 

[Spymaster]

Now you're just being daft. Our system insists that guilty means guilty. Just think how long it took for the Birmingham Six to prove their innocence. If the death penalty had been around back then they wouldn't have stood a chance. I love the way you add an 'etc' to your list of bureaucratic stages leading up to the execution. You don't really have an answer to how you deal with mistakes, misinformation, deliberate distortion of the truth, establishment denial and populist indifference to potential killing of the wrong people.

You're not listening. I'm not suggesting going back to "back then". The Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 always come up but I wouldn't have executed them. As I said before, your point is moot.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You're not listening. I'm not suggesting going back to "back then". The Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 always come up but I wouldn't have executed them. As I said before, your point is moot.

You don't get to decide who gets to live and who doesn't. Someone else does. They will make mistakes. Unlike you obvs.

 

[Spymaster]

Your arguments are terrible. More holes than a swiss cheese. And they are touchingly naive. That's a kind way to put it.

That isn't intended as a personal insult. It is a comment on a really stupid, naive idea about how the world works.

Here you go again!

This is your MO and has always been. No sensible argument, just 'you're stupid and naive'.

You are no good at this.

 

[xenon]

there is no perfect system that involves decision complicating factors that exists for anything. if there were, the death penalty will not be the first thing on my wish list. some proponents of the death penalty do except innocent people may die. be honest, you have to accept that not resort to fantasy. Otherwise we might as well be discussing fully automated luxury Communism.

 

[Ax^]

This is true - maybe part of the application to die by capital punishment could include a perpetrator statement/proposal to the victims loved ones.

i don't know think their any benefit to any society with having the death penalty as an option

but a a thought experiment if you're were going to go down that route. I would see it as a nessary step

 

[ice-is-forming]

i don't know think their any benefit to any society with having the death penalty as an option

but a a thought experiment if you're were going to go down that route. I would see it as a necessary step

That's what this is, a thought experiment

 

[Spymaster]

You don't get to decide who gets to live and who doesn't.

In this circumstance of course I do. You're asking me about my thoughts and under what circumstances I would execute criminals.

 

[Spymaster]

some proponents of the death penalty do except innocent people may die. be honest, you have to accept that not resort to fantasy.

Why?

 

[xenon]

I know it’s all been done before but this is actually an interesting discussion.

 

[xenon]

Why?

Because you’re advocating for a systemic change. A mechanism being put in place for certain cases looks perfect. But that’s not how these things work. This isn’t about whether person X deserve to die. You’ll have no argument from me on that. But once you have that as a mechanism you have no control over how it will be used in future mistakes anomalies.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

In this circumstance of course I do. You're asking me about my thoughts and under what circumstances I would execute criminals.

No we're not. We're talking about reintroducing the death penalty in the UK. Nowadays, not in some future society where you miraculously hold the power of life and death over convicted felons.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

You're not listening. I'm not suggesting going back to "back then". The Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 always come up but I wouldn't have executed them.

Oh my fucking god, can't believe he really fucking said that. In public too. How embarrassing.

 

[Spymaster]

But once you have that as a mechanism you have no control over how it will be used in future mistakes anomalies.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[xenon]

It’s a bit like once you have a household with a gun in it. Children will shoot each other at some point. But the right to bear arms.

 

[Spymaster]

No we're not. We're talking about reintroducing the death penalty in the UK. Nowadays, not in some future society where you miraculously hold the power of life and death over convicted felons.

Yes. But not without exception or controls.

 

[xenon]

No system is perfect anyone tells you it is is a liar or they’re trying to sell you something

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Yes. But not without exception or controls.

Etc

 

[Spymaster]

It’s a bit like once you have a household with a gun in it. Children will shoot each other at some point.

 

[xenon]

systemic imperfection. That’s before we get to the philosophical principle of allowing a state to take a life in cold blood. when there is no threat from the subject. But that is human nature for you.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To be clear, I oppose the death penalty even if we had some god-like ability to determine guilt. I do not want the state to have that power. And even the idea that certain people might have lost their right to expect to live (not an idea I subscribe to particularly - I don't find it helpful) does not get us to the place that says that we (whoever 'we' might be) should kill them where we have the option not to. 'We' can and should aspire to be better than that.

So having put that to one side, there is no god-like power to determine guilt. Anyone who thinks there could be a system that doesn't make mistakes is kidding themselves about the nature of human institutions. Such a situation has never existed and will never exist.

 

[Spymaster]

So having put that to one side, there is no god-like power to determine guilt. Anyone who thinks there could be a system that doesn't make mistakes is kidding themselves about the nature of human institutions. Such a situation has never existed and will never exist.

God-like power isn't necessary and the situation absolutely exists now.

Do you agree that some people can be guilty of a crime beyond all doubt whatsoever?

 

[xenon]

May come back to this, posting on Phone et cetera. But you know what I mean. Mistakes will happen. If you’re fine with that, that’s one thing. You can’t invent some perfect situation for the sake of the argument. And even then see above and broadly in agreement with LBJ.

 

[Spymaster]

To be clear, I oppose the death penalty even if we had some god-like ability to determine guilt. I do not want the state to have that power. And even the idea that certain people might have lost their right to expect to live (not an idea I subscribe to particularly - I don't find it helpful) does not get us to the place that says that we (whoever 'we' might be) should kill them where we have the option not to. 'We' can and should aspire to be better than that.

This bit, by the way, is the only sensible argument you've ever made on this.

Effectively 'I don't believe in CP because that's not the society I want to live in'.

I can respect that. It's just not my view.

 

[xenon]

In some ways this is an easier argument if you are a complete pacifist.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you agree that some people can be guilty of a crime beyond all doubt whatsoever?

That's the wrong question. The right question is to ask whether it is possible for a human justice system to be set up in such a way that it can infallibly make that decision.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This bit, by the way, is the only sensible argument you've ever made on this.

Effectively 'I don't believe in CP because that's not the society I want to live in'.

I can respect that. It's just not my view.

Sensible?

You are currently arguing for a system in which only those who are really guilty are killed. And you talk about sensible?