Post-exit immigration policy - what should it be?

[treelover]

Somke of the comments about working class, brexiters, etc, are appaling, thick, racist, shouldn't be able to vote, some basically arguing for eugenics, in many ways, the G is now the opposite mirror image of the DM.

 

[The39thStep]

how? how would it help? would it magic up the capacity to train tens of thousands of nurses?

Not in the short term no, more likely recruitment to some posts will be dealt with by these jobs going on the shortage occupation list. As part of a long term strategy to adress recruitment shortages yes and should never have been abolished.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not in the short term no, more likely recruitment to some posts will be dealt with by these jobs going on the shortage occupation list. As part of a long term strategy to adress recruitment shortages yes and should never have been abolished.

very good of you to step in for treelover

 

[Pickman's model]

Somke of the comments about working class, brexiters, etc, are appaling, thick, racist, shouldn't be able to vote, some basically arguing for eugenics, in many ways, the G is now the opposite mirror image of the DM.

Yeh it's been like that for years

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbh I think we should be thinking more of a matter which hasn't been discussed, namely the emigration policy. We ought to decide how the nation's south atlantic industrial zone will be staffed.

 

[Gramsci]

Answering the thread question I would say no immigration controls.

Having lived in London years now and worked with a large number of people who are immigrants or had parents who came here my opinion is that immigration policies are never going to be "fair".

The latest one being that its not "fair" that EU people could come instead of Commonwealth citizens. This had nothing to be do with the EU.

The post war Commonwealth was effectively free movement within the Commonwealth. The problem came when people excercised this right and came here.

This free movement was gradually curtailed. in a way that parellels the treatment that EU people are getting more recently.

This country has always had a problem dealing with immigration. Whether its from Ireland , Carribbean or Eastern Europe.

 

[editor]

Here's some numbers:

Home Secretary Priti Patel has come under fire after suggesting eight million "economically inactive" Britons can fill vacancies following a post-Brexit clampdown on immigration.

The government set out its new post-Brexit immigration system on Wednesday, which will deny visas to "low-skilled" workers and require others to achieve a certain number of points based on their salary and qualifications.

Ms Patel hailed a "very significant moment in the UK's immigration policy", with the new system due to come into force when EU free movement rules end in January 2021.

The Home Office estimates 70% of EU workers currently in the UK would not meet the requirements if applying under the new system.

Critics have claimed the government's push to drive down net migration numbers under the new system could lead to shortages in some sectors.

Andrea Wareham, director of human resources at cafe chain Pret a Manger, has previously revealed 65% of its workforce come from EU countries.

She also claimed only one in 50 people who apply for vacancies are British.

But, challenged about those warnings, Ms Patel told Sky News' Kay Burley @ Breakfast show: "It is about time businesses started to invest in people in this country.

"We have over eight million people - that is 20% of the workforce - aged between 16 and 64 that are economically inactive right now."

Migrants will have to score a certain number of points to be allowed entry to the UK
The home secretary said it was an "assumption" that Britons do not want certain jobs.

She added: "It is down to businesses to work with the government and join us in investing in people, levelling up across the UK so we can have wage growth across the entire country."

Latest figures from the Office for National Statistics reveal there were 8.48m economically inactive people in the UK aged 16-64 at the end of last year.

However, when those classed as economically inactive are asked whether they do or don't want a job, only 1.87m say they do.

Around 2.6m of those who are economically inactive are students, 2.08m are long-term sick, 1.89m are looking after homes or family members, and 1.12m are already retired.

Labour's shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth claimed Ms Patel was "clearly clueless" for suggesting economically inactive Britons could fill job vacancies, as he criticised the government's immigration plans.

"Not only are these proposals hugely damaging for our economy - making a complete mockery of Tory claims to 'level up' our economy - they're potentially devastating for our health and care sector," he told the BBC.

"Although there may well be exemptions for certain categories of NHS staff, it seems there'll be no exemptions whatsoever for social care staff."

Priti Patel: Home secretary attacked over 'clueless' claim that 'inactive' Britons will fill job vacancies

When those eight million classed as economically inactive are asked whether they do or don't want a job, only 20% say they do.

news.sky.com

 

[editor]

I guess TopCat is never going to answer these questions, but I'll open it up to others. How many friends would you have lost if this Brexit immigration policy had been in place five or ten years ago?

I can count at least 30 friends who I would never had got to know if the new immigration rules had been in place. Just like me, they travelled from another country to join the melting pot of Brixton and got jobs in bars, cafes etc.

Some have now moved on to managerial jobs, while one has started her own affordable cafe. They all make a contribution to the area and the community,

Brexit means that people like them won't now be able to come over from the EU. That bothers me hugely. Doesn't it bother you?

Oh and I'll ask again: what benefits do you think Brexit will bring to the NHS?

 

[Steel Icarus]

None

 

[editor]

None

Where the hell do you live? Or do you never go out? Just about every bar, gallery, every cafe, every venue and just about every everywhere I go has EU nationals working there!

 

[Treacle Toes]

None

Really. This is other world for me. You know no one who would have been or has been affected?

 

[Steel Icarus]

Where the hell do you live? Or do you never go out? Just about every bar, gallery, every cafe, every venue and just about every everywhere I go has EU nationals working there!

Haven't got many friends, don't go out, and live in a place without bars, venues or galleries. Incredibly there are some places in the UK that aren't London/big cities.

I'm not saying it's not Draconian and shit, however. Lots of the students I helped in their Maths and English studies last year were non-UK born and I wonder how these ridiculous rules are affecting them and their hopes of settling here permanently.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I guess TopCat is never going to answer these questions, but I'll open it up to others. How many friends would you have lost if this Brexit immigration policy had been in place five or ten years ago?

Five/ten years? I have many friends and colleagues, also some relatives. Open it up a bit and use the 'low skilled' doublespeak of Not SO Pritti Patel, meaning low waged, I wouldn't actually exist, nor would my partner, nor would too many people I know, have worked with, have cared for, have supported, my neighbours, my firends...the random I say hello to on the street, in the local shop/cafe/bar etc.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Really. This is other world for me. You know no one who would have been or has been affected?

Editor said friends. See also answer above, but I've got one non-UK born friend - yes, just one - who I expect this won't effect as she's been here a long time, is married to a Brit, is from Ukraine

 

[Steel Icarus]

Not asked my neighbours how it might affect them, they're really nice and we say hello but conversation is difficult as they're Bulgarian and their English is poor.

 

[editor]

Five/ten years? I have many friends and colleagues, also some relatives. Open it up a bit and use the 'low skilled' doublespeak of Not SO Pritti Patel, meaning low waged, I wouldn't actually exist, nor would my partner, nor would too many people I know, have worked with, have cared for, have supported, my neighbours, my firends...the random I say hello to on the street, in the local shop/cafe/bar etc.

If I include acquaintances and people I know to chat to from bars/cafes etc, the number rises exponentially, and the last time I was in hospital I had wonderful care from many wonderful people who wouldn't have get in the country under Patel's rules.

I've got some group pics from nights out where I'd probably be the only one left standing if this Brexit shit had happened years ago.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

This thread seriously.

1. If anyone think that a moderate reduction in migration at the lower end of the income scale is going to wreck multiple British industries and services, maybe, just maybe, we're too dependent on overseas workers?
2. As Yossarian, who actually seems to have read the proposals, points out repeatedly on this thread where there is a genuine labour shortage employers have got an easy way round it. Too easy in fact
3. Even if your view is that you can stand up a politics based on free movement, the idea that large parts of the economy are indefinitely dependent on low-paid or mistreated foreign workers is insane.

On QT last night we had Ash Sarkar and Chief Executive of RBS at one on this issue - the free market for cheap labour must be maintained.

The wheel has turned full circle.

I’m off to do some trade union work. Trying to defend people and their livelihoods and terms and conditions. I’ll leave this thread to it

 

[redsquirrel]

View attachment 199206

What is the idiot trying to conclude from that?

 

[ska invita]

the free market on cheap labour must be maintained.

Thats one way of framing letting people like me to move here.

Cheap labour will be maintained, and it will be on a cheap labour only basis - do your shit work and then fuck off - dont let the door hit you on your way out. Is this better than what has gone before? Doesnt look like it to me.

 

[ska invita]

One thing that video you posted a while back Smokey i agreed with was - people from other countries moving to the UK and taking part in work is fine, always has been, so long as the pay and conditions are high and equal and no one is undercut, and thats where the battleline is.
New policy of British Jobs For British Workers + some dodgy limited rights work visa system that is likely to come for poor jobs + black market is not an improvement on the current situation, its a step back for workers, for our wider human rights and for working conditions

 

[Steel Icarus]

What is the idiot trying to conclude from that?

That British workers are too idle to work for nowt in shit conditions, unlike herself, at the coalface of light entertainment and the hardship of having just failed to be a LibDem MP candidate.

 

[Manter]

I guess TopCat is never going to answer these questions, but I'll open it up to others. How many friends would you have lost if this Brexit immigration policy had been in place five or ten years ago?

I think that’s an unanswerable question. Many of my friends would have ended up being able to move anyway as they are polyglot and work in occupations which are ‘welcomed’ (eg medicine) or where employers do what needs to be done (pharma research, IT). But J wouldn’t have had his childminder, for a start: she was Spanish.

What seems to be happening is EU immigration law being made totally aligned with wider immigration law. It’s horrifying and draconian and unjust and I detest what it says about us as a nation: but I do think we have to acknowledge that non-EU migrants have been dealing with this shit for decades. If we want to get rid of this stuff for Germans we should be trying to get rid of it for Indians too.

 

[Manter]

One thing that video you posted a while back Smokey i agreed with was - people from other countries moving to the UK and taking part in work is fine, always has been, so long as the pay and conditions are high and equal and no one is undercut, and thats where the battleline is.
New policy of British Jobs For British Workers + some dodgy limited rights work visa system that is likely to come for poor jobs + black market is not an improvement on the current situation, its a step back for workers, for our wider human rights and for working conditions

And remember that immigrants undercutting wages has now been added to legislation- if it’s a ‘shortage’ occupation, employers can pay 20% less

 

[The39thStep]

What is the idiot trying to conclude from that?

That the British working class are lazy etc etc compared to the work ethic implanted EU working class. The job was for £8 an hour.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And remember that immigrants undercutting wages has now been added to legislation- if it’s a ‘shortage’ occupation, employers can pay 20% less

That's not very free market of them is it? Surely if there's a shortage of something, it should cost more?

 

[ska invita]

h Sarkar and Chief Executive of RBS at one on this issue - the free market for cheap labour must be maintained.

The wheel has turned full circle.

As much as you are at one with Johnson and Farage... Is that how this full circle analogy works?

 

[SpookyFrank]

This thread seriously.

1. If anyone think that a moderate reduction in migration at the lower end of the income scale is going to wreck multiple British industries and services, maybe, just maybe, we're too dependent on overseas workers?
2. As Yossarian, who actually seems to have read the proposals, points out repeatedly on this thread where there is a genuine labour shortage employers have got an easy way round it. Too easy in fact
3. Even if your view is that you can stand up a politics based on free movement, the idea that large parts of the economy are indefinitely dependent on low-paid or mistreated foreign workers is insane.

On QT last night we had Ash Sarkar and Chief Executive of RBS at one on this issue - the free market for cheap labour must be maintained.

The wheel has turned full circle.

I’m off to do some trade union work. Trying to defend people and their livelihoods and terms and conditions. I’ll leave this thread to it

In defence of Sarkar she did explicitly make the point that immigrants' lives should not be reduced to questions of economic functionality. Seemed like she was being loudly jeered by the audience as she did so. In a way I hope the BBC are padding these audiences out with known gobshites on purpose, and that they do not represent a cross-section of society.

 

[redsquirrel]

That British workers are too idle to work for nowt in shit conditions, unlike herself, at the coalface of light entertainment and the hardship of having just failed to be a LibDem MP candidate.

That the British working class are lazy etc etc compared to the work ethic implanted EU working class. The job was for £8 an hour.

Well that's what I suspected but I thought I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[ska invita]

In defence of Sarkar she did explicitly make the point that immigrants' lives should not be reduced to questions of economic functionality.

Didn't watch it but here here to that.

 

[Manter]

That's not very free market of them is it? Surely if there's a shortage of something, it should cost more?

That’s what the Tories are intervening to stop happening....