Post-exit immigration policy - what should it be?

[TopCat]

I pretty much agree with the various union's take on it. I think it's going to cause real problems for small businesses, cafes, pubs and some areas of healthcare. The Tories are already doing their best to destroy the NHS, but perhaps you might explain how it'll be improved under Brexit?

And seeing as you asked me: what do you think about what I posted and why?

More here: No visas for low-skilled workers, government says

Well I asked as your post was comment free. Ta for the response. I can see it being a problem for companies used to a constant supply of people willing to work for minimum wage. They will have to pay more or make way for those who do.
I think the only real opposition to this stems from wanting to keep profits high without investing in people and their training.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

This is what is posted by some remainers on social media

Yes. There does seem to be a current among elements of left liberalism that can’t wait, are itching, for the working class to be furthered hammered as punishment for their own stupidity in voting to leave a neo-liberal economic trading area.

An odd position for progressives to adopt some might suggest

 

[editor]

Well I asked as your post was comment free. Ta for the response. I can see it being a problem for companies used to a constant supply of people willing to work for minimum wage. They will have to pay more or make way for those who do.
I think the only real opposition to this stems from wanting to keep profits high without investing in people and their training.

I can count at least 30 friends who I would never had got to know if the new immigration rules had been in place. Just like me, they travelled from another country to join the melting pot of Brixton and got jobs in bars, cafes etc.

Some have now moved on to managerial jobs, while one has started her own affordable cafe. They all make a contribution to the area and the community,

Brexit means that people like them won't now be able to come over from the EU. That bothers me hugely. Doesn't it bother you?

Oh and I'll ask again: what benefits do you think Brexit will bring to the NHS?

 

[MickiQ]

This is what is posted by some remainers on social media

Turnips won't pick themselves, there is another alternative to getting the great unwashed to do it.
I can see people being flown in from third world countries on short contracts for say 8 to 12 weeks being housed on the farms in portakabins and shipped home at the end of it.

 

[TopCat]

Turnips won't pick themselves, there is another alternative to getting the great unwashed to do it.
I can see people being flown in from third world countries on short contracts for say 8 to 12 weeks being housed on the farms in portakabins and shipped home at the end of it.

That's what happens now apart from the third world shit.

 

[TopCat]

That's what happens now apart from the third world shit.

Has anyone ever seen a fruit picker job advertised here?

 

[editor]

Turnips won't pick themselves, there is another alternative to getting the great unwashed to do it.
I can see people being flown in from third world countries on short contracts for say 8 to 12 weeks being housed on the farms in portakabins and shipped home at the end of it.

We can't have any of those 'economically inactive' people lazing about. Set them to work in the fields, the lazy fuckers!

The latest Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures show 8.48 million 16- to 64-year-olds are economically inactive, so the home secretary is right on this.

The biggest category is students, who account for 27% of the inactive. They may be able to take on part-time jobs, but could not be relied upon to deal with the staff shortages that some business groups have warned about.

Another 26% of the inactive population count as sick - almost all of whom are long-term sick.

Next up, 22% of the inactive are those who are looking after their homes or caring for family members.

The fourth most common reason for economic inactivity is people who have retired before the age of 65 - that's 13% of the total.

There is a very small category - less than half a percent - who describe themselves as "discouraged workers".

Are economically inactive people the answer to staff shortages?

Priti Patel says businesses should train the 8.5 million economically inactive people. But only two million of them want a job.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[TopCat]

We can't have any of those 'economically inactive' people lazing about. Set them to work in the fields, the lazy fuckers!

Are economically inactive people the answer to staff shortages?

Priti Patel says businesses should train the 8.5 million economically inactive people. But only two million of them want a job.

www.bbc.co.uk

If they paid more they will attract staff.

 

[editor]

This woman is evil

Home Secretary Priti Patel admits own parents might not have been allowed into UK under her new immigration laws

Minister insisted that changes were 'not about my background or my parents'

www.independent.co.uk

 

[TopCat]

Especially amongst the young who have few opportunities.

 

[TopCat]

This woman is evil

Home Secretary Priti Patel admits own parents might not have been allowed into UK under her new immigration laws

Minister insisted that changes were 'not about my background or my parents'

www.independent.co.uk

Care to explain why? Specifically?

 

[editor]

Care to explain why? Specifically?

If you can't see it, I can't help you, sorry.

 

[TopCat]

If you can't see it, I can't help you, sorry.

Oh come on. You called her evil. I dont know much about her bar advocating the death penalty before she got her current job. Was that it?

 

[Yossarian]

Turnips won't pick themselves, there is another alternative to getting the great unwashed to do it.
I can see people being flown in from third world countries on short contracts for say 8 to 12 weeks being housed on the farms in portakabins and shipped home at the end of it.

That was kind of how it worked under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme that was in place until 2013, when restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian workers were lifted - something similar has now been revived. Obviously these kinds of schemes are massively open to the kind of exploitation that leaves the migrants workers leaving without with barely more money than when they arrived, as happens in Australia:

Seasonal Workers Program pickers told if they join a union they'll get no work

"I want to come back. I was scared of his words. So were others and some people resigned from the union that day."

www.theage.com.au

Australia also has "Temporary Skilled Shortage" visas, which employers routinely use to bring in low-paid workers from overseas to work in sectors where there aren't skills shortages, who are denied the opportunity to apply for permanent residency because they don't have enough points - I can see why the Johnson government likes talking about an "Australian-style system."

 

[TopCat]

That was kind of how it worked under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme that was in place until 2013, when restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian workers were lifted - something similar has now been revived. Obviously these kinds of schemes are massively open to the kind of exploitation that leaves the migrants workers leaving without with barely more money than when they arrived, as happens in Australia:

Seasonal Workers Program pickers told if they join a union they'll get no work

"I want to come back. I was scared of his words. So were others and some people resigned from the union that day."

www.theage.com.au

The reality of picking on many farms is brutal. The gangers often have people on site to enforce the rules and ensure no asking for more. Easier to manage than UK workers. Less likely to cause a fuss or organise. This is why they wont recruit from the UK. Nothing to do with lazy brits.

 

[Big Bertha]

The reality of picking on many farms is brutal. The gangers often have people on site to enforce the rules and ensure no asking for more. Easier to manage than UK workers. Less likely to cause a fuss or organise. This is why they wont recruit from the UK. Nothing to do with lazy brits.

Will be interesting to see if they manage to get British employees when their options are limited.

 

[TopCat]

Will be interesting to see if they manage to get British employees when their options are limited.

They will get them they just have to change the approach. Pay more, guaranteed run of work. More attention to health and safety.

 

[TopCat]

I think Dorking winery employed loads of people who drink its wines to pick its grapes and paid them properly and looked after them. But that's it.

 

[Yossarian]

I think if any company wants to bring in low-paid unskilled or semi-skilled workers under the new system, it's just going to be a question of them telling the government how many they want and filling in a few forms - the Tories just want to avoid having these workers bring their families to Britain, send their children to school in Britain, potentially qualify to become British citizens, or become comfortable enough in their situations to start asking for better pay and working conditions.

 

[editor]

The reality of picking on many farms is brutal. The gangers often have people on site to enforce the rules and ensure no asking for more. Easier to manage than UK workers. Less likely to cause a fuss or organise. This is why they wont recruit from the UK. Nothing to do with lazy brits.

I see you're choosing to ignore my questions about the supposed benefits to the NHS and refusing to comment on the fact that so many people who choose to work in the UK in bar/cafe/care jobs will now be blocked.

 

[DexterTCN]

We can't have any of those 'economically inactive' people lazing about. Set them to work in the fields, the lazy fuckers!

Are economically inactive people the answer to staff shortages?

Priti Patel says businesses should train the 8.5 million economically inactive people. But only two million of them want a job.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'd assumed the brexiteers would be stepping up.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Here's 'eight ways new laws will affect industry'. Makes me wonder about all of the EU friends I wouldn't have if this had come in 5 years ago. Almost all of then wouldn't get in now.

I don't think any of my friends, whether from the UK, the EU or elsewhere, makes north of 25k tbh.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'd assumed the brexiteers would be stepping up.

Me too. Can you imagine how beastly it would be if one couldn’t ‘grab’ ones morning latte from a deferential barrista on a zero hours contract?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Anyone who thinks this is going to improve pay and conditions for workers needs to take a look at who is running this show. More likely 'full employment' will be announced in the middle of a brexit-induced recession and that will then be used as a pretext to put an even greater squeeze on benefits. We've already got the fuckers telling us we're now better off than before the 2008 crash, provided you don't factor in silly things like logic or information.

 

[captainmission]

This woman is evil

Home Secretary Priti Patel admits own parents might not have been allowed into UK under her new immigration laws

Minister insisted that changes were 'not about my background or my parents'

www.independent.co.uk

As awful as Patel is I'm not sure how she's responsible for the commonwealth immigration act 1968? The proposals made today don't make things worse for non-EEA migrants than the existing system. In some cases they'll actually be a benefit as the can rely lower the minimum earnings requirement for certain jobs.

 

[Spymaster]

The proposals made today don't make things worse for non-EEA migrants than the existing system.

Some posters are studiously ignoring this in favour of having a rant.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Anyone who thinks this is going to improve pay and conditions for workers needs to take a look at who is running this show.

I couldn’t agree more. It’s a government with a coalition reliant on lent votes from Labour voters in areas like West Brom which has suffered systemic unemployment, high levels of poverty and since manufacturing collapsed a dearth of well paid work or decent apprenticeships.

I think, also, that we need to remember that a properly organised response from the Labour movement based around sort of ideas and demands I’ve outlined over the past few pages here does two things at once. First, it offers the possibility that the left become competitive in the battle of ideas and offers the prospect of a) building wide and deep support for the demands and b) creating ‘common sense’ hegemony around ideas about decent pay, proper apprenticeships, guaranteed standards and level standards for all workers. It could even organise strikes bringing workers together to demand it. Workers of all nationalities and backgrounds would have a direct and invested interest in its success.

Second, it puts the Tories on the spot and tests their new found ‘friend of the hard working worker’ credentials to a real and public test directly affecting millions of its new voters. If they agree the demands become embedded. If they don’t then Labour has got a simple message come 2024. The alternative, against a government with a sizeable majority, is whining about the difficulties Starbucks or the Holiday Inn chain faces or simpering about vague commitments to fairness, at some point, one day, maybe

 

[not-bono-ever]

there will be cheap labour out there once this headline grabber has faded- except they will be working black and consequently likely excluded from all support structures

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The Tory spin on this is actually really effective, and the Labour (and general liberal) responses have been dire.

The Tories are pushing the idea that, paraphrasing, "for too long businesses have been relying on cheap imported labour and not investing in training or paying fair wages, we want to put a stop to that". Do they want to put a stop to it? Clearly no - they're anti-education with no interest in training, they've deliberately created a punitive benefits system that forces people into low paid insecure jobs, and they know that harsher immigration laws absolutely encourage low-paid exploitative work. It's not actually a threat to any existing power structures at all. But they're not being challenged on that.

The liberal soundbites have been "but how are low paying companies going to survive like this? clearly they need to keep paying poverty wages so how will the world cope? ooh look the Tories are ruining society". It's so obviously a bad take, not just in terms of being evil but just really misjudging the general mood.

 

[William of Walworth]

I'm relieved that Smokeandsteam and a few others in this thread are posting positively about how organising and fighting for better working conditions and pay would be the real answer to shite employment conditions. I'm not at all optimistic, but good on S + S for arguing for it

Nearly everything else I've been reading at the moment about immigration and the Tories' proposals has been depressing.