HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Oh god I’m reading the statements and things, ugh it’s worse than I remember.
Paul Embery
- Thread starter Fedayn
- Start date
cantsin
Well-Known Member
you're a brave man to predict that at this stage, could easily end up over there imo
( last few days )
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I've nothing in particular against those who advocate economic interventionism and social conservatism, obviously the degrees of both can be argued for and against , but within a 'socialist' framework. PiS is way outside that.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I take from his article that PE is arguing that unless the left adopts similar "economic interventionism and social conservatism, within a 'socialist' framework" that it leaves that constituency (which is large) with only one political direction to travel in - away from us and towards the right.
I think he overdoes the family stuff, he also overlooks failed attempts in germany to mimim right populism, but the idea he's gravitating to the fash is miles wide of the mark.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
So you claim he is really arguing for something that he doesn't even mention and does this by referring to a party that is openly hostile to socialist ideas, unusual.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The Denmark situation would have been a far more plausible example for him to have used. I find it hard to defend him as he seems to be in a dead end contrarian role now but I dont necessarily have a problem with family, community, country and economic intervention etc . As for his supposed path to fascism he's just been part of a fairly succesful negotion for London FBU members.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
You cant have 'social conservatism' within a socialist framework, it's a contradiction in terms. Funny how its only ever straight white men who argue for such a thing.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Depends what your 'socialist' framework is and depends wha and to what degree t the 'social conservatism' might be. I've met plenty of people who are socially conservative who are neither straight, white or male.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Oh sure. I suspect (I don't know the guy though) he'd be appalled - to put it mildly - at the suggestion.
Problem is fascism (or its contemporary far-right equivalents) is no longer skinheads in the NF. You can find yourself a fellow traveller whilst still believing in your own anti-fascist credentials. Look at all the murky red-brown stuff.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Anyone who read any of his writing will know that his particular brand of politics, Blue Labour, demands Labour adopt a political formulation of radical economic interventionism and social conservatism.
What is unusual is anyone reading this article and concluding that he's gravitating towards fascism.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Embery isn't a socialist. He's a social democrat. And you can most definitely have economic intervention and social conservatism within that framework.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I wasn't replying to Embery, but to someone who used the phrase 'socialist framework.'
Either way, social conservatism of the kind Embery is talking is reactionary, explicitly homophobic and racist. As most of it is, given a scratch (with an unhealthy dose of sexism, a promotion of 'the family' that means women in 'traditional' roles and attacks on abortion etc etc). It certainly isn't a 'sweet spot' in politics.
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Proper Tidy
Arsed
Deeply anti marxist too, that's a long standing thing as well afaik rather than a development of his recent 'journey' so yeah his socialism is a pre neoliberalism social democracy.
Re: his trade union work - not taking anything away from that at all, but it's entirely possible to be a good trade unionist with shitty politics, contradictory politics etc. One of best reps I knew during a spell in public sector was a tory, another rep in same branch was on bnp list. I don't think it's really evidence of any wider politics, or indicative that somebody isn't going towards far right (not really arguing the specific in this case, just the dodgy logic of good trade unionist so politics of the left)
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
He’s definitely ‘anti-Marxist’.
There are plenty of decent stewards in my union with shit politics - right wingers, corbyn cult supporting left hobbyists and performative lefts, ultra lefts, Stalinists etc. So I agree entirely as a general point. But I’m not sure what that’s got to do with the discussion here?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Sorry wasn't in response to you, I just tagged it on. Somebody else cited his recent TU activity as evidence not drifting to far right.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I’m not invisible pal it was me and he’s not on a path to the far right he’s a social democrat and Blue Labour.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I just couldn't be arsed looking back but yeah it was something you said
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Old Ruts number I think
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Or just somethng in my head
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
But what has 'blue Labour' got to do with the national-conservative politics of the Law & Justice party, a right-wing reactionary explicitly anti-socialist party? Embery's position would far better have been referenced by Denmark. That he chose the reactionary, women back in the home, racilaly reactionary Law and Justice party is unfortinately rather instructive.
I didn't say he was on his way to fascism, but he is certainly explicitly referencing national-conservative, ie distinctly rightist/far right anti-socoalist politics now.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
I find it very depressing that the crossover on that is so prevalent.
That and the alt-right
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Well, he's been on this direction of travel anyway, but nothing like making the case for 'Labour no longer being the party for the working class' by doing so in the Mail.
I mean, fuck Labour too. But ok Paul.
I mean, fuck Labour too. But ok Paul.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Plugging his book which is for sale on the virtue signalling Amazon siteWell, he's been on this direction of travel anyway, but nothing like making the case for 'Labour no longer being the party for the working class' by doing so in the Mail.
I mean, fuck Labour too. But ok Paul.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I’ve posted about the Embery book in the Reading Populism thread and cba to post it again. Unless I’ve missed something there’s nothing new to see here. It’s largely a journey back to a time that never really existed.
It’s instructive that his trajectory is leading to paid MoS articles. It was only a matter of time for his imagined past. He’s right about Labour of course, and it’s capture by the PMC, but again it’s nothing we haven’t seen and discussed before.
Much more important than his fledging shilling is the necessary work to recover left populism, and to rescue it from the cul-de-sac of Blue Labour.
It’s instructive that his trajectory is leading to paid MoS articles. It was only a matter of time for his imagined past. He’s right about Labour of course, and it’s capture by the PMC, but again it’s nothing we haven’t seen and discussed before.
Much more important than his fledging shilling is the necessary work to recover left populism, and to rescue it from the cul-de-sac of Blue Labour.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Does he say woke? I bet he says woke.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I noticed Mathew Goodwin described it an an ‘insiders story’. I’m not sure about how active Embury is in his local Labour Party ( I suspect very little tbh) and I’m not aware of any PLP that has an active Blue Labour base , of any candidate on the NEC or a prospective PLC . Don’t see anything similar in a trade union branch or nomination . I don’t mind some of Blue Labours stuff and I dare say I’d agree with sections of his book but neither him or Blue Labour seem to do anything seriously politically or in terms of activity to change Labour or even to make an in road .
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