London St Paul's bomb plot: IS supporter Safiyya Shaikh 'got cold feet'

[Spymaster]

On the face of it she was fitted up, literally. Presumably it was the two coppers who measured her for her suicide vest.

She was arrested at the point where she bailed out, so despite their best efforts, it appears the police didn't actually succeed in turning her into a suicide bomber.

Yeah, yeah, righto!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, yeah, righto!

What bit of that is wrong?

 

[platinumsage]

It’s almost like there isn’t a court case in progress right now in which all these things are being discussed in far more detail than anyone on this thread will ever know.

 

[agricola]

What bit of that is wrong?

TBF the suggestion that she was ever going to be turned into a suicide bomber.

 

[nogojones]

Of course it would be. We should do our very best to avoid executing innocent people and only kill guilty ones.

When it comes to miscarriages of justice, what ratio of killing innocent people to guilty do you consider an acceptable ratio?

 

[Spymaster]

What bit of that is wrong?

Probably everything you've read into it. You and others are determined to think the worst of the security services and break your backs in bending over to give her the benefit of any doubt. Undercover work is necessary to combat these cases. You have absolutely no idea about how they were involved beyond a few lines in the OP yet you've convinced yourself that she was fitted-up. Her history of inciting terrorist activity online and her pedging of allegiance to IS mean nothing. You've made your minds up and that's that.

 

[planetgeli]

The Bali bomb maker, Umar Patek, was captured in 2011 and jailed for 20 years in Indonesia in 2012. Maybe his jailing, not killing, is also relevant to their being no mass attacks on Indonesia since 2012.

Also, this man.

Crossing Divides: The bomb maker turned peacemaker

Once part of the group behind the Bali bombing, now Ali Fauzi is on a mission to end terror.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ali Fauzi is also an Indonesian bomb maker. He served three years for terrorist offences. If he had been executed he couldn't do what he does now. De-radicalize.

"We saw videos of the brutal attacks on civilians. I wanted to carry out jihad to protect the Muslim people from the bullies. With young, hot blood I wanted to fight back."

While his brothers went to fight alongside the mujahideen, in Afghanistan, Ali Fauzi stayed closer to home, joining Islamic militants fighting for a Muslim homeland in the southern Philippines.

"I really wanted to die there. I imagined my own death all the time," he says.

"I believed that if I was killed in battle I would go straight to heaven and be met by angels there. That's what our mentors told us every day."

Then he was caught.

"Police treated me very humanely. If they had tortured me then maybe seven generations after me would be fighting the Indonesian government," he says.

"I hated the police, we thought of them as Satan. That's what we were taught. But the reality was completely different. That's when my whole perspective completely changed."

As the evening call to prayer rings out across the Tenggulun village, prayer mats are rolled out in a square at the side of the village's main mosque. They are just next to the office of Circle of Peace, the foundation Ali Fauzi set up in 2016 to divert people away from extremism.

It's an extraordinary meeting. In the audience are police who arrested members of this community, as well as those who have served time in jail on terrorism offences.

They are listening to the victims of the bombing talk, through tears, about the pain they have suffered.

In the audience is 33-year-old Zulia Mahendra. He was a teenager when his father, Amrozi, was arrested, sentenced to death and then later executed for the Bali bombing.

Amrozi was dubbed the "smiling assassin" by the media because he showed no remorse during the trial, grinning throughout and defiant to his death.

Mahendra, too, has gone through an astonishing transformation.

"When my father was executed, I wanted revenge. I wanted to learn how to make bombs too," he admits.

"But over time and with guidance from my uncles - Ali Fauzi and Ali Imron - they made me realise it was the wrong thing to do. And I joined their project to help other terrorists change."

None of which is possible if you simply execute people. In fact, as stated, the opposite tends to happen.

 

[scifisam]

It’s almost like there isn’t a court case in progress right now in which all these things are being discussed in far more detail than anyone on this thread will ever know.

Hasn't she already been found guilty? I mean, yeah, they'll have more details than us - which applies to everyone here, whether you think there was some entrapment or not - but the court case is over.

I also just wanted to mention one of the damning details from the BBC report:

She messaged one of them via an encrypted social media app.

That would be all of them, then.

 

[scifisam]

Probably everything you've read into it. You and others are determined to think the worst of the security services and break your backs in bending over to give her the benefit of any doubt. Undercover work is necessary to combat these cases. You have absolutely no idea about how they were involved beyond a few lines in the OP yet you've convinced yourself that she was fitted-up. Her history of inciting terrorist activity online and her pedging of allegiance to IS mean nothing. You've made your minds up and that's that.

So have you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Never said it was, but your assertion that executing terrorists creates more terrorists was shown not be to the case when those three were shot.

it's worth noting that after executing 16 men in 1916 the British executed very few people during the tan war

 

[Pickman's model]

Hasn't she already been found guilty? I mean, yeah, they'll have more details than us - which applies to everyone here, whether you think there was some entrapment or not - but the court case is over.

I also just wanted to mention one of the damning details from the BBC report:



That would be all of them, then.

Very few people who plead guilty are acquitted

 

[Spymaster]

Hasn't she already been found guilty?

She pleaded guilty. I think she's yet to be sentenced.

 

[Spymaster]

So have you.

Well I've based my opinion on her record of terrorist incitement, the guilty plea, and the seeming lack of legal argument against entrapment.

You lot have based yours on nothing but anti-police bias and lefty-prat tendency to leap to the defence of terrorists if there's an opportunity to slag off the establishment maaaaan!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Probably everything you've read into it. You and others are determined to think the worst of the security services and break your backs in bending over to give her the benefit of any doubt. Undercover work is necessary to combat these cases. You have absolutely no idea about how they were involved beyond a few lines in the OP yet you've convinced yourself that she was fitted-up. Her history of inciting terrorist activity online and her pedging of allegiance to IS mean nothing. You've made your minds up and that's that.

I am questioning the value of what was achieved here. Inciting terrorism online is an offence. They could have done her for that. As it is, they invested considerable resources in this little game. And what did it achieve? Did it lead them to actual terrorists planning real attacks? In the end all they've shown, if they've shown anything, is that it's likely that actual terrorists planning real attacks would have been wasting their time on this particular person as she ended up bailing out, despite her big words.

Further to that, when the police say they have foiled x number of plots over the last three years, I would rather like to know how many of them were of this nature in order to subtract them from the total.

 

[Spymaster]

I am questioning the value of what was achieved here. Inciting terrorism online is an offence. They could have done her for that. As it is, they invested considerable resources in this little game. And what did it achieve? Did it lead them to actual terrorists planning real attacks? In the end all they've shown, if they've shown anything, is that it's likely that actual terrorists planning real attacks would have been wasting their time on this particular person as she ended up bailing out, despite her big words.

You have no idea what they've invested or what they've achieved beyond the absolute certainty that someone who pledged allegiance to genocidal rapist murderers, and expressed a wish to bomb churches and "kill as many people as possible", has been taken out of circulation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You have no idea what they've invested or what they've achieved beyond the absolute certainty that someone who pledged allegiance to genocidal rapist murderers, and expressed a wish to bomb churches and "kill as many people as possible", has been taken out of circulation.

But they already knew she was like that. You seem to think they've revealed something new about her from this operation. They haven't. They targeted her precisely because they knew she was like that.

 

[Spymaster]

You seem to think they've revealed something new about her from this operation. They haven't.

You don't know that. You don't know what other intelligence has been gained from the operation. You don't know how keen she may have been in pursuing the bombings and killings ...

They targeted her precisely because they knew she was like that.

Good job!

 

[scifisam]

If the case were still ongoing then Editor wouldn't have posted a thread about it. Them's the rules.

Well I've based my opinion on her record of terrorist incitement, the guilty plea, and the seeming lack of legal argument against entrapment.

You lot have based yours on nothing but anti-police bias and lefty-prat tendency to leap to the defence of terrorists if there's an opportunity to slag off the establishment maaaaan!

Nah, I'm basing it on what was in the BBC report, which is exactly the same info you have. They talked to her about terrorism, helped fit her up for a bomb vest (so there was some definite fitting up ) and then she didn't do it. Like I said earlier in the thread, it's difficult to separate entrapment from genuine investigation, because there aren't many other ways for cops to investigate. I really hope there was a lot more evidence against her, especially when it comes to the vest and the "here's some bags to put bombs in" bit. The way it's presented really makes it sound like she was caught up in the hype. That can still make her dangerous because the next person she talked to like that could have been an actual terrorist with access to bombs.

But then, still, she didn't actually collect any bombs or bomb material, or even fake bombs - pretty sure if she had that would have been in the press report, because that would be damning.

I'd be a lot happier with the verdict and sentence if they'd presented her with fake bombs and she'd walked off with them; how hard can that be? There might still be some entrapment there but she would have made the decision to actually kill people, rather than chat shit about it.

It's definitely not open and shut, let's execute her.

 

[agricola]

I am questioning the value of what was achieved here. Inciting terrorism online is an offence. They could have done her for that. As it is, they invested considerable resources in this little game. And what did it achieve? Did it lead them to actual terrorists planning real attacks? In the end all they've shown, if they've shown anything, is that it's likely that actual terrorists planning real attacks would have been wasting their time on this particular person as she ended up bailing out, despite her big words.

Further to that, when the police say they have foiled x number of plots over the last three years, I would rather like to know how many of them were of this nature in order to subtract them from the total.

They'd have had to put those considerable resources into investigating her to establish who (if anyone) she was linked to, what she was planning to do, what she was capable of doing and so on. If they established she was planning something they'd have to manage the risk of that as well. They wouldn't have been able to establish much of that if she'd just been banged up for inciting terrorism online.

Sorry for repeating myself but these sorts of people - those on the fringes, the people who chat online about carrying out attacks, those who have things in their lives that make them think they are a failure at some level, the easily fooled / duped etc - are the people who are carrying out many of these recent attacks in the UK.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well I've based my opinion on her record of terrorist incitement, the guilty plea, and the seeming lack of legal argument against entrapment.

You lot have based yours on nothing but anti-police bias and lefty-prat tendency to leap to the defence of terrorists if there's an opportunity to slag off the establishment maaaaan!

It's always disappointing to see someone like you stand up for the worthless shits who compose the establishment and defend the police who wouldn't hesitate to fit you up if they thought it might serve their interests

 

[A380]

Yeh let's jail the easily persuaded

We do. Most prisons are not full of strong self actualised people who made rationale well defined life choices.

 

[Pickman's model]

We do. Most prisons are not full of string self actualised people who made rationale well defined life choices.

Yeh there's the screws, and then there are the prisoners

 

[andysays]

Well I've based my opinion on her record of terrorist incitement, the guilty plea, and the seeming lack of legal argument against entrapment.

You lot have based yours on nothing but anti-police bias and lefty-prat tendency to leap to the defence of terrorists if there's an opportunity to slag off the establishment maaaaan!

I've based my judgement at least partly on the fact, as reported, that she wasn't arrested until after she had told her alleged co-conspirators that she no longer wanted to go ahead, as littlebabyjesus pointed out to you above, and which you seem to have both missed on reading and then dismissedas incorrect when it was pointed out to you.

 

[Spymaster]

I've based my judgement at least partly on the fact, as reported, that she wasn't arrested until after she had told her alleged co-conspirators that she no longer wanted to go ahead ...

And that indicates a police "fit-up" .... how exactly?

 

[Spymaster]

It's always disappointing to see someone like you stand up for the worthless shits who compose the establishment and defend the police who wouldn't hesitate to fit you up if they thought it might serve their interests

Defending the police for nicking IS fans who plan mass murder.

Yep. Sign me up.

 

[A380]

Sometimes it feels there's a parallell urban operating alongside the one we all know and love....

...Some folk bristle at criticism of the police, justice system. Others on this very thread calling for the death penalty and a bit of sympathy for a corporate overlord :

Is there a forum of urban lines one should follow? I must have missed that.

Not sure there are many posters who bristle at criticism of the criminal justice (ha) system or the police. Even those posters where there is a strong likelihood they are part of the same.

There is also a long standing urban chain of thought of yanking chains.


Anyway.

Death penalty wrong. Good part of me, because it is wrong to take life where there is no threat guilty or innocent. Bad part of me, because I want cunts who kill for imaginary friends or because they can’t control their anger or because they love power over others to really suffer for years, not escape into the nothingness. Doesn’t mean killing people is always wrong though ( see liberation struggles for just one of many examples.)

Also terrorists now; well you just can’t get the staff can you? No need for massive logistics stretching over years and training people to fly, or detailed plans of the London transport and energy systems combined with a high level of knowledge of both chemical and civil engineering. No just watch a few videos on the internet get your self down to B&M to buy a couple of chef’s knives and get stabby till the tooled up Rozzers turn up and send you off to Virgin heaven.

(Unless you are unlucky and an unarmed racist coward arrives equipped only with a small stick and a tin of condiment and still stops you stabbing the gay blokes and pins you to the pavement. Or stands in front of the refugees and let’s you stab him till his mates with the guns turn up so you don’t get to kill anyone Or indeed You get really unlucky and the cop with a gun is quite short and in an unsuitable car (to save money) so you both get shot, and still get to spend the rest of your life in Belmarsh- not paradise).

 

[Pickman's model]

Defending the police for nicking IS fans who plan mass murder.

Yep. Sign me up.

As I've said above, this plot seems largely if not entirely the work of the police. You might have noted I also said she should be pursued for her support of Isis.

 

[Spymaster]

As I've said above, this plot seems largely if not entirely the work of the police.

Yes. I am aware that that is the way you have chosen to interpret these events.

 

[krtek a houby]

Well I've based my opinion on her record of terrorist incitement, the guilty plea, and the seeming lack of legal argument against entrapment.

You lot have based yours on nothing but anti-police bias and lefty-prat tendency to leap to the defence of terrorists if there's an opportunity to slag off the establishment maaaaan!

Not defending her, don't believe she deserves to be murdered by the state.

 

[Spymaster]

Not defending her, don't believe she deserves to be murdered by the state.

It wouldn't be murder. Judicial executions are, by definition, lawful.