Paramedics doubt Dr Kelly's 'suicide' cause

[Donna Ferentes]

Just because you're not aware of the any reason for Dr Kelly to be killed, doesn't mean there wasn't any - or do you think the government would run all such information past you first, just in case you were interested? My point was that you can't make blanket statements like "there was no reason" without being in full possession of the facts - and unless you're an MI5 spook, you're not.

Also, much like DrJazzz isn't allowed to get away with using 'facts' found on bizarre unattributed websites to support his arguments, you cannot come to the conclusion that the government has never killed anyone simply because nobody on an internet bulletin board can pluck names out of the air at a moments notice.

No, that won't do. When there's no evidence for a theory that x has occurred then you're entitled to assume that x has not occurred until you're shown otherwise. That's how reason and science work. Unsupported speculation is not entitled to be taken seriously.

 

[ill-informed]

(a) there is no evidence that Dr Kelly was killed by the government
(b) there was no reason for Dr Kelly to be killed by the government
(c) this government is not in the habit of killing people who disagree with them, even if they are seriously discomforted by their disagreement.

a) Prbably not, but the thread is saying that the official suicide theory may be incorrect, therefore it looks like murder and if it was murder then obviously it may have been the govt. A crazed loner or kids high on crack doesn't seem very likely.
b) they wanted to go to war, and they didn't want anyone getting in the way. It wasn't just our govt but also the americans etc.
c) Maybe not when it comes to things like working tax credits or 11plus tests, but when it's oil. Lets face it kelly's death pales into insignificance compared to all those who have died since, i'm sure they just believe that the ends justify the means. And we can only speculate on what might have happened had kelly lived.


What troubles me is the way the media were falling over themselves to say this was suicide from the very beginning when it was obviously a bit suspect considering the enemies he was making.

Also i don't agree with the official he was under great pressure therefore......

 

[Masseuse]

There seems to me to be a fair few people around casting doubt upon the idea that Kelly committed suicide.

The question is, should these doubts be investigated or not?

We have paramedics, QCs, forensic toxicologists, and doctors taking issue with the suicide verdict.

We have colleagues of Dr Kelly testifying that the man received death threats and that he feared for his life.

Would it be normal, in any other circumstances for these things to be ignored? Maybe Stobart can tell us how the police normally handle such things when investigating a suspicious death. I may be wrong, but aren't these sort of things usually followed up? Aren't death threats a significant factor?

Are the credentials of the people coming forward not good enough?

Why the resistance to what they are saying?

 

[Buddy Bradley]

Has anyone actually made such a claim?

Justin inferred it from the lack of response to his earlier request for names.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

they wanted to go to war, and they didn't want anyone getting in the way. It wasn't just our govt but also the americans etc.......

Then where are all the other murdered dissidents, hmm? I mean there were a hell of a lot of them.

c) Maybe not when it comes to things like working tax credits or 11plus tests, but when it's oil. Lets face it kelly's death pales into insignificance compared to all those who have died since, i'm sure they just believe that the ends justify the means.

Yes, but which of thee have been killed for disagreeing with (or embarassing) the government?

And we can only speculate

Indeed

Justin inferred it from the lack of response to his earlier request for names.

Well, I did more than infer. I asked for evidence and observed that I had been provided with none.

As you must know, you can't prove a negative. I can't prove that aliens don't make landings on planet Earth and I can't prove that the government does not surreptitiously kill off people who displease it. I can say that I am entitled to assume that these things do not happen until somebody gives me fair and specific reason to consider the thesis that they do.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

No, that won't do. When there's no evidence for a theory that x has occurred then you're entitled to assume that x has not occurred until you're shown otherwise. That's how reason and science work. Unsupported speculation is not entitled to be taken seriously.

That's not entirely true, is it - quantum physics? Life on other planets?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

That's not entirely true, is it - quantum physics? Life on other planets?

But there is evidence in these cases. There's not, however, proof. But there's a case to be argued.

 

[xes]

There seems to me to be a fair few people around casting doubt upon the idea that Kelly committed suicide.

The question is, should these doubts be investigated or not?

We have paramedics, QCs, forensic toxicologists, and doctors taking issue with the suicide verdict.

We have colleagues of Dr Kelly testifying that the man received death threats and that he feared for his life.

Would it be normal, in any other circumstances for these things to be ignored? Maybe Stobart can tell us how the police normally handle such things when investigating a suspicious death. I may be wrong, but aren't these sort of things usually followed up? Aren't death threats a significant factor?

Are the credentials of the people coming forward not good enough?

Why the resistance to what they are saying?

Coupled with the FACT that about 17 top scientists have met with untimley deaths in the past 20 or so years. No,I don't have a link,but in the thread from way back when,I did provide a list of the names,occupations of them all and details of how they died. (supposedly)

I just do not trust the government,can't see it as a big thing to them to bump of someone. But that is MY view of them,no I do not have stacks of evidence,I just have my distrust of those war mongering wankers.

Now,this thread is not going to prove a thing,as we are not in full possession of all the facts. I'll just agree to dissagree and leave it there.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

But there is evidence in these cases. There's not, however, proof. But there's a case to be argued.

I meant that there was no evidence to start with, but people investigated anyway. If they'd taken your position we'd never have bothered. Bit off-topic, anyway.

 

[xes]

A list of missing/dead scientists http://seekers.100megs6.com/scientists.htm

But I suppose this will be discredeted (even though it has plentiful links to news sites) as it's seemingly from a 9/11 site. (I didn't know that when I posted it,just plucked a link from the web)

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I meant that there was no evidence to start with, but people investigated anyway. If they'd taken your position we'd never have bothered. Bit off-topic, anyway.

Well, not really (and better off-topic than on-, I reckon) because I have nowhere suggested that people shouldn't ask questions, take an interest, and so on. But if scientists saw fit to go about their speculations in the way that DrJazzz et al do, Erich von Daniken would have got a Nobel Prize.

 

[ill-informed]

Then where are all the other murdered dissidents, hmm? I mean there were a hell of a lot of them.

we aren't talking about dissidents otherwise i wouldn't be saying what i'm saying on the net. Kelly was different because he was in the know and was refuting the govt bollocks.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Kelly was different because he was in the know and was refuting the govt bollocks.

What was he saying that other people have not said? Like for instance the substantial number of security services personnel who have contradicted the government's account of the state of Iraq's weapons production?

 

[Balbi]

Thousands of people missing here, with even less evidence than the Kelly conspiracy, governments eh? You think they'd be glad of the taxes!

http://nmph.underwired.com/seen.php?showall=yes

 

[Masseuse]

But there is evidence in these cases. There's not, however, proof. But there's a case to be argued.

So there's absolutely no case to be argued in the Kelly debacle then? Absolutely no shred of doubt, no cause for concern, move along now, nothing to see.

What are all these disssenting voices then? Why are people involved in the case presenting an alternative scenario? Just for a bit of a fuck about? Because it's fun putting careers and reputations on the line? Or because they have serious concerns?

Traditionally, something is first investigated,then a case is put together proposing the most likely scenario of what really happened. It seems, in this case, that we are being told there is no case to be argued - before these claims have even been investigated! That makes no sense whatsoever! You cannot know whether there is a case or not until these claims are properly explored!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I'm shocked to learn that scientists sometimes die in accidents. You'd think they'd be more careful after all that experience in the lab.

 

[xes]

I'm shocked to learn that scientists sometimes die in accidents. You'd think they'd be more careful after all that experience in the lab.

Yes,me too.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Why are people involved in the case presenting an alternative scenario?

What "alternative scenario" have they presented?

 

[Masseuse]

I meant that there was no evidence to start with, but people investigated anyway. If they'd taken your position we'd never have bothered. Bit off-topic, anyway.

Well yeah. Not much evidence about Watergate until people decided to bloody look for it.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

What "alternative scenario" have they presented?

"How can you be so obtuse?"

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well yeah. Not much evidence about Watergate until people decided to bloody look for it.

Well, actually there was. There were half-a-dozen men with dubious connections found burgling the headquarters of the Democratic Party.

"How can you be so obtuse?"

Well, tell me what alternative scenario has been presented.

 

[xes]

Well, actually there was. There were half-a-dozen men with dubious connections found burgling the headquarters of the Democratic Party.

wow,democratic parties get burgled? you'd think they'd have better allarm systems.

 

[ill-informed]

What was he saying that other people have not said? Like for instance the substantial number of security services personnel who have contradicted the government's account of the state of Iraq's weapons production?

Can you not remember the media frenzy when the kelly thing came out. This was different. He was being listened to.

 

[Masseuse]

What "alternative scenario" have they presented?

That it would be highly unusual for the death to be caused by the slitting of the ulnar artery. That 29 co-proxamols would not be a fatal dose. For a start.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "scenario" - my mistake. But there are significant people questioning the suicide verdict, for various different reasons.

Why are we being encouraged to ignore this? Why is documented medical evidence which runs contrary to the official version being downplayed?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Can you not remember the media frenzy when the kelly thing came out. This was different. He was being listened to.

Yes. What was he actually saying that marked him out as a target for death?

Christ, this is so threadbare, isn't it?

That 29 co-proxamols would not be a fatal dose. For a start.

Any idea why he might have taken them if not as part of a suicide attempt?

 

[Buddy Bradley]

Well, tell me what alternative scenario has been presented.

I was quoting from the Shawshank Redemption rather than trying to make a point...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I was quoting from the Shawshank Redemption rather than trying to make a point...

Indeed but that film is rather less fictional than much of what has been posted on here...

 

[ill-informed]

Yes. What was he actually saying that marked him out as a target for death?

How about the govt is lying.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

How about the govt is lying.

That's an accusation made quite often in the media by well-informed people. Please tell me what was different about the statements made by Dr Kelly. What did he say or know that made it necessary or useful to kill him?

 

[Balbi]

How about the govt is lying.

No change there i'm afraid, elections next year, have a crack at it then.

Before i'd have got seriously het up about these allegations, but i'm stuck in early modern europe for the next three years

Is there anything from Dr Kellys family by the way, possibly saying 'can all of these people just let our family have his memory back?'