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Paramedics doubt Dr Kelly's 'suicide' cause

Justin said:
A pedant observes: you would arrive in a Trojan Horse rather than on one.
Ah! That's what they want you to think!

But Bill Gates has in fact created a 500 foot Trojan horse which he'll use to gallop all over the world, beaming out mind control waves:

"YOU...MUST...INSTALL...INTERNET...EXPLORER...."
"YOU...MUST..UNINSTALL.....FIREFOX......"
 
Well, there's been a lot of demands for an outlining of the scenario if it wasn't suicide.

Honestly, I've no idea, just a gut feeling. having spent a little time searching for more information on the circumstances of dr kelly's death, I've found that I can't actually find anything on the web about the details of where he was found, who found him, what immediate evidence there was to hand of other people's involvement, all the kind of things you'd expect the inquest that didn't happen to consider. So basically it's quite difficult to have much of an idea.

But just so as to prove that it's not impossible to put a half-plausible speculation up:

Dr Kelly goes for a walk. He meets a couple of spooks appointed to kill him.

They have him at gunpoint, and order him to ingest the pills. He does this, maybe he knows he's a dead man, maybe they threaten his family if he doesn't comply, maybe they say, if you don't comply we'll shoot you in the balls and leave you to bleed to death.

And then once he's unconscious, they cut his wrist and he bleeds to death.

Having said that, I've no idea why he took his penknife with him. Is that a fact? If it is, couldn't the spooks have planted the penknife. Who took custody of Kelly's body? Did no-one have the opportunity to plant the penknife later? Mayber the penknife was just a coincidence and the murderers found it in his pocket, took advantage and improvised.

~Alternatively, maybe the cuts and the drugs were irrelevant, and he was killed by having an airbubble injected into an artery, and then we were mislead by reports.

It's not that easy actually. I'll give the sceptics that. And trying it has given me pause to doubt my own gut feeling. But honestly, it's very difficult to find out what really happened. If it was murder, then you can be sure that the truth is well covered by now, and it seems likely that whoever was in charge of the investigation was party to the conspiracy if there was one. Now if only Inspector Morse had been the investigator, then it might be a different story.

Edited to add: I've now found a lot more detail. The actual evidence given at the Hutton inquiry
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/03/hutton_inquiry/hutton_report/html/chapter05.stm#a28

It wasn't a penknife, it was a gardening knife, or pruning implement, apparently, well in fact it was described as a gardening knife by Constable Page, but a penknife that he had owned from boyhood by others, and was normally kept in his study drawer.

The policeman originally on scene found the empty packets of tablets himself. He testifies to no signs of a struggle. Certainly reading the policeman's evidence gives me some cause to doubt my gut feeling. It's difficult after reading through the evidence given at the Hutton inquiry to doubt that it was suicide. But all the same there's nothing there that's not also consistent with a professional fake suicide. And let's face it, if the government does kill people like that, they are going to be professional about it.

Does the government have a track record for being unconcerned or concerned about extra-judicial killings of people who make trouble for their projects?
 
DrJazzz said:
There's another fishy 'suicide' that happened over the pond recently - Gary Webb, who managed to shoot himself in the head twice!
What's that got to do with Kelly's death?

It's utterly irrelevant.
 
Buddy Bradley said:
So are repeated references to UFOs...
Not when they're on sites purporting to know the real 'truth' behind Kelly's death.

I find it quite educational to research the credibility of those making extraordinary claims about fantastic conspiracies.

How about you?
 
Unless the sites in question are claiming that the UFOs had something to do with Kelly's death, then they are irrelevant.
 
No they're not. They're demonstrating the general lack of interest of the site in scientific evidence. They damage the credibility of whatever other claims they make. Unless those other claims are themselves properly backed up with scientific evidence.
 
Buddy Bradley said:
Unless the sites in question are claiming that the UFOs had something to do with Kelly's death, then they are irrelevant.
So if you met someone who believed in a whole load of crackpot theories about UFOs and mind control rays - none of which was supported with anything remotely approaching credible scientific research - would you be more or less inclined to believe him when he then went on to tell you that he knew the 'truth' about Kelly's death, even when that was equally unsupported by evidence?
 
This is very much the point. Of course somebody can believe absolute nonsense one minute and yet be extremely well-informed and wise another moment. (Didn't Newton believe in alchemy?) But you don't show yourself to be well-infomred and wise merely by making assertions, and if your other assertions are completely loopy, then not only are you still at the starting post but you're already carrying a considerable handicap.
 
editor said:
So if you met someone who believed in a whole load of crackpot theories about UFOs and mind control rays - none of which was supported with anything remotely approaching credible scientific research - would you be more or less inclined to believe him when he then went on to tell you that he knew the 'truth' about Kelly's death, even when that was equally unsupported by evidence?
I bet if I were to look into it a little, I would find that many advocates of the suicide theory believe in "a whole load of crackpot theories" relating to virgin birth, omnipresent deities, rising from the dead and other Biblical nonsense, "none of which [is] supported with anything remotely approaching credible scientific research"; should we also discount their opinions as crackpot theories? Or is it only the grateful recipients of the Editor Fruitloopery Award whose opinions may be rubbished in this way?
 
I refer you to my postings immediately above. In the absence of other evidence, then assertions can only really be judged against the track record and technique of the party making the assertion. That's why we take the word of the scientist before that of the saloon bar bore.
 
Buddy Bradley said:
Or is it only the grateful recipients of the Mike Slocombe Fruitloopery Award whose opinions may be rubbished in this way?
Why are you including my full name here?

What's yours then?
 
Because the 'Editor Fruitloopery Award' didn't have the same ring to it. Are you suggesting that your boardname affords you any anonymity at all? Your name (and home address) are plastered all over the rest of the site.

Similarly, my full name is on my own site. :)
 
Buddy Bradley said:
Because the 'Editor Fruitloopery Award' didn't have the same ring to it.
I choose not to post under my full real name. My board name is 'editor'.

I'd prefer it if you referred to me by that.

Simple manners, really.
 
editor, for the umpteenth time of asking,

Do you still really believe that Kelly bled to death?
 
Quite possibly - that's certainly what two coroners have concluded. Or maybe he had a heart attack from the shock of cutting himself. Or maybe it was one of those many deaths every year where there isn't a clear-cut medical explanation.

Seeing as there isn't a single molecule of evidence to suggest he was murdered - and the fact that he'd swallowed all those pills and had his own pen knife with him - I'm inclined to agree with his wife and family.

So how do you think he died? (for the zillioneth time of asking)
 
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