Paramedics doubt Dr Kelly's 'suicide' cause

[editor]

I have a serious question to the people on this thread who think that conspiracies are all a load of bollocks

Could you be so kind as to point me in the direction of a post where someone made a claim that every single conspiracy ever was "a load of bollocks"?

 

[xes]

Could you be so kind as to point me in the direction of a post where someone made a claim that every single conspiracy ever was "a load of bollocks"?

Appologies if I didn't make myself clear,it's just that when ever a conspiracy tastic thread comes along,it's poo pooed without any shadow of a doubht.

I just wondered,that's all. I didn't mean to say that everyone on here has denounced every conspiracy ever,or has stated that.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Of course, it's just that the conspiracies on which people post are always so bizarre and disproportionate and hence their arguments so ludicrous.

Real conspiracies do happen. But they're not neat and tidy and able to do anything they want because they're all-powerful and capable of leaving no trace. That's because they're carried out by people who are inexact and do incompetent things and make mistakes. Real cover-ups certainly happen (try Deepcut, for insatnce).

 

[Idris2002]

Surely any Dr would use a scalpel?

I don't think he was a medical doctor, though I'm open to correction on that one.

In fact, haven't we said he was a chemist.

The really interesting thing about this case is not the circumstances of the death, which we may never know for certain, but what it says about modern UK society.

There used to be a time when people believed that 'brit justice is the best in the world'.

Now that was only people who lived in britain (and not in the colonies) but if it becomes widely believed that Kelly was murdered (or even that there was more to his death than meets the eye) it will be something of a departure for british culture.

And that change will ultimately be the result of wider changes in the society and the culture - changes of the sort which not only drive the course of history but which conspiracy theory is inadequate to deal with.

 

[xes]

And what a convincing case it wasn't.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/scientists.htm

Here's a better list,with info on what work each scientist was involved in

 

[editor]

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/scientists.htm

Here's a better list,with info on what work each scientist was involved in

Have you got a similar list for, say, milkmen, plumbers and teachers, so that we could draw some meaingful comparisons?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It's a kook site I'm afraid.

 

[Thumper Browne]

1. Yes, they lie to us often.
2. Yes, there are cover-ups. But neither cover-ups not conspiracies tend to be very organised and watertight things. Moreover each become smore leaky as time goes on - more people find out, conspirators fall out with one another, the reasons for the cover-ups become less pressing etc.

1. We can argee that Gov'ts lie.
2. Isn't this the case with the Kelly affair, hardly the best cover up? It's getting more leaky as time goes on, conspirators haven't really been put on the ropes yet so they'll prolly still be quite tight, as time moves on the war becomes less of a feature and more so the reasons for war.

 

[editor]

It's a kook site I'm afraid.

Eeek!

Front page:

AMERICAN PATRIOT FRIENDS NETWORK
Takin' My Country back!

And yep - you guessed it - it's stuffed full of UFO bullshit!

Bwahahahaha!

 

[Idris2002]

Dr Langford began working at the university in 1993 after gaining his PhD in childhood leukaemia and infection following a first-class honours degree in environmental sciences. He worked most recently as a senior researcher assessing risk to the environment.

What were the possible military applications of this, would anyone know?

Or would it have no military applications?

In which case, why would the state kill him?

Looks to me his death (which does sound peculiar) is only being included because it fits in with preconceived notions about mysterious deaths of scientitists.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think there's some theory about a miracle cure that's being repressed or something.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Before you criticise these 'loonspud' theories, regarding the scientists, I suggest you research it a bit more.

The woman I knew whose son died was a level-headed, sensible, deeply religious and very intelligent individual but she said she will go to her grave always believeing her son was murdered by someone, and that he didn't commit suicide. He never told anyone what project he was working on, even his wife didn't know, only that it was something to do with the military. Maybe he just knew too much.

 

[xes]

It's a kook site I'm afraid.

ooh,that's ok then. Those people are still alive then?

 

[xes]

Front page: And yep - you guessed it - it's stuffed full of UFO bullshit!

Bwahahahaha!

So,you denouce all the conspiracies on that site,cos it believes in aliens?

 

[Thumper Browne]

He worked most recently as a senior researcher assessing risk to the environment.

Idenify the types of risks he was investigating and that'll give you a list of suspects. (Columbo 101.)

 

[Donna Ferentes]

ooh,that's ok then. Those people are still alive then?

Even scientists die sometimes. Sometimes, they're even killed. For the same reasons other people are killed.

So,you denouce all the conspiracies on that site, cos it believes in aliens?

And because that latter tends to sum up its approach.

 

[editor]

So,you denouce all the conspiracies on that site,cos it believes in aliens?

Wouldn't a site stuffed full of really bonkers nonsense make you rather suspicious of the credibility of the author and of their ability to parse the truth?

 

[editor]

The woman I knew whose son died was a level-headed, sensible, deeply religious and very intelligent individual but she said she will go to her grave always believeing her son was murdered by someone, and that he didn't commit suicide. He never told anyone what project he was working on, even his wife didn't know, only that it was something to do with the military. Maybe he just knew too much.

She's entitled to believe that, but that doesn't mean she was right.

Was there an enquiry into his death? How did he die? What was suspicious about the circumstances?

For the record, I worked in the Welsh Office and I wasn't allowed to tell people what I was working on (even if it was deadly dull government department stuff).

 

[Stobart Stopper]

She's entitled to believe that, but that doesn't mean she was right.

Was there an enquiry into his death? How did he die? What was suspicious about the circumstances?

There was a post mortem and an inquest, which just said how he died, I can't say too much as I don't want to have him identified on here and it wouldn't be that hard if I posted this up. Inside his house, there were no sucpicious circumstances as far as I know, it was other things that made them suspicious, like people who had been seen near the home just before his death, in the weeks leading up to it, his death appeared to have been a suicide. He just didn't show any suicidal tendencies, had no money worries, a perfectly happy marriage etc etc.

 

[Thumper Browne]

Here's another link to a list of dead scientists

http://www.global-elite.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article& sid=71

And back to who says it was Tony and his boys, like I said, loads of people with motives....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1318577,00.html

*keeping an open mind*

edited to change the second link to the correct one, d'oh!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Wouldn't a site stuffed full of really bonkers nonsense make you rather suspicious of the credibility of the author?

This is the point. Proper research, be it scientific or journalistic, needs qualities like evidence and methodology. If you come out with loads of crap then you demonstrate that you don't know, or care, the difference between a sustainable case and a load of rubbish. And so you convince nobody.

Scientific journals do not proceed like this. This is why when the Lancet says that 100,000 civilians may have died in Iraq, it has to be taken seriously because it has shown its methodology and it has been peer-reviewed before publication, i.e. people who know what they're talking about have looked at the piece and consider that it has made a reasonable case. It may of course be completely wrong. But any allegations it makes are, at least, supported by research and evidence and are not wild.

Compare and contrast the dead-scientists site and you see my point. It's all very well saying "have an open mind", but an open mind about what? A load of unsupported drivel, or a serious case?

 

[Thumper Browne]

This is the point. Proper research, be it scientific or journalistic, needs qualities like evidence and methodology. If you come out with loads of crap then you demonstate that you don't know, or care, the difference between a sustainable case and a load of rubbish. And so you convince nobody.

Did the investigation into Kelly's death and the Hutton inquiry meet these exacting journalistic/scientific standards, if so, why are there still unanswered questions about his death and why do people remain unconvinced of the suicide verdict?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Did the investigation into Kelly's death and the Hutton inquiry meet these exacting journalistic/scientific standards

No, I do not think they did. However, compared to the "murder" theories they were a very model of rigorous procedure.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Assassins who work for the security services hardly ever get detected, it's the same with this Diana enquiry. These people are so in deep that no one will ever find them, not the local police, even high-ranking officers who are later bought in to perform a proper investigation.

So may high profile people have been taken out over the years, JFK, Bobby Kennedy, President Sadat, Ghandi, the list is endless. They all had one thing in common....they had the ability to change society for the good, they had the power to bring change to the common people and those in power with one agenda didn't like their meddling.

 

[Thumper Browne]

No, I do not think they did. However, compared to the "murder" theories they were a very model of rigorous procedure.

And because the murder theories were rubbish it must have been suicide?

If that is your arguement I'm sure you can see the flaw in it yourself?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You don't fancy actually reading my posts, do you? Go on, give it a pop. Think of it as rigorous research.

 

[Thumper Browne]

You don't fancy actually reading my posts, do you? Go on, give it a pop. Think of it as rigorous research.

which ones

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Assassins who work for the security services hardly ever get detected, it's the same with this Diana enquiry. These people are so in deep that no one will ever find them, not the local police, even high-ranking officers who are later bought in to perform a proper investigation.

Oh Christ, the Diana nonsense. Evidence for this one = nil.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

which ones

That would constitute the research element.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Oh Christ, the Diana nonsense. Evidence for this one = nil.

That's the spirit!

That's what they want you to think. Over the last 7 years, so much crap has been written, it's almost become like a big joke.

Surely the fact that the driver of the white Fiat car that clipped her Mercedes that night should have come forward, only his body was later found in suspicious circumstances, a burned out car, I believe?

Diana, the silly cow, if she has kept her gob shut and behaved she would still be alive today. It was the landmines that killed her.