Papers, please - covid passport bollocks

[bimble]

My thread on this was loads better, there was less confusion about whether Illinois is a country.

 

[Pickman's model]

And Australia

Flu shots to be mandatory for hospital staff in high-risk roles

Rules announced on Thursday could see nurses, doctors and administrative staff who refuse to get flu jab moved to positions where they pose less risk to patients.

www.theage.com.au

for staff in high risk roles. not for all staff. not in fact mandatory because if you don't want it you shift to somewhere else.

in addition, it's only hospitals in victoria and not all australia.

 

[Border Reiver]

for staff in high risk roles. not for all staff. not in fact mandatory because if you don't want it you shift to somewhere else.

in addition, it's only hospitals in victoria and not all australia.

You just do not read cites. "All front line staff"

 

[Border Reiver]

ah yes this is behaviour typical of the 'lying cunt'

Back onto ignore for further abuse.

 

[Pickman's model]

You just do not read cites. "View attachment 262315All front line staff"

you don't understand. yes, all frontline staff will have to be vaccinated. but staff do not have to serve on the frontline. any member of f.l staff who doesn't want the jab goes to work elsewhere. and in any event victoria is an australian state and this policy not applicable to the whole country.

 

[Pickman's model]

Back onto ignore for further abuse.

it's not abuse to call a lying cunt a lying cunt

 

[mojo pixy]

]
Colorado
Hospitals must offer vaccine and report status
Employees can only decline flu shot due to medical exemption

Illinois
Hospitals must offer vaccine and report status
Employees can only decline flu shot due to medical or religious exemption

Aside from the 'not most countries' of this, there's the fact these rules apply to hospitals, surgical units, long term nursing units. Medical Facilities.

In Colorado it looks as if, if a facility can show 90% of its staff have been vaccinated in any given year, that legally covers them. Medical and religious (and 'philosophical' lol) exemptions are allowed too, so if you really really don't wanna, you really really don't hafta.

Also by the look of it, Assisted Living Facilities (what we quaintly call Care Homes) don't have to get all staff vaccinated, in Illinois.

 

[andysays]

Her employer / agency is being slack. Very very poor. All care workers can book themselves in for the vaccine, as long they have a note from the employer / agency - who should be facilitating that as best they can. A lot of very low-standards care agencies and employers out there though.

Thanks for that. It doesn't surprise me that this is the case.

As I understand it, she is employed by an agency but works for or through the council in an adjacent London borough.

She has had her first jab now and is awaiting the second, but I wonder how many others are in a similar position because of shitty employers, and how these numbers compare to those who have been offered the vaccination but have refused to have it.

As usual, I suspect that individual workers are being blamed but the problem of bad employers is more significant.

 

[andysays]

Own home. I asked about vaccination back in January, and at that point all the carers had already had their first jabs. They were given their jabs before my parents got theirs.

Thanks

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thanks for that. It doesn't surprise me that this is the case.

As I understand it, she is employed by an agency but works for or through the council in an adjacent London borough.

She has had her first jab now and is awaiting the second, but I wonder how many others are in a similar position because of shitty employers, and how these numbers compare to those who have been offered the vaccination but have refused to have it.

As usual, I suspect that individual workers are being blamed but the problem of bad employers is more significant.

Totally agree with this last bit. And if I came across as blaming staff, it wasn't intended. In reality, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of care staff are keen to get their vaccinations as soon as possible.

My folks are in Wales btw. Wales has had a slightly different policy from England. Don't know how much of a difference that has made.

 

[andysays]

Totally agree with this last bit. And if I came across as blaming staff, it wasn't intended. In reality, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of care staff are keen to get their vaccinations as soon as possible.

My folks are in Wales btw. Wales has had a slightly different policy from England. Don't know how much of a difference that has made.

I'm not particularly talking about you or anyone else here when I refer to blaming, it's more that I suspect the focus on care workers supposedly refusing the vaccine is actually out of proportion to the significance of that issue in comparison to others like my neighbour not being offered the vaccine when she should have been.

 

[mojo pixy]

Blame hospital managers and care home owners, not staff who 100% did their best in shitty situations.

As usual, I suspect that individual workers are being blamed but the problem of bad employers is more significant.

I probably overspoke with 100% tbh. I've met a few conspiraloon staff too, and had words. Due to the many laws on safeguarding and health and safety that apply, the only and best response to some idiot not using PPE properly is 'it's the law and how you feel about it is irrelevant'. But yes, I'd like to amend to 99% sadly.

I will add, I've seen a couple of 'covid sceptics' change their tune after a shift with covid cases, and this could point the way towards a solution to the problem of staff who just don't wanna. Make them work with people very ill with covid. You can't unsee someone gasping for breath saying am I going to die?

 

[A380]

so that's 119 hospitals for colorado and 142 in illinois. so 261/6090, or 4.29% of all hospitals in the united states.

Be Careful, you are angling for an ignoring...


ETA, It appears I was too slow again, who'd-a-thought-it?

 

[WouldBe]

Or, we trust staff not to spread flu by wearing PPE but not covid, because..?

Take your pick.

Which worked really well hence the number of doctors and nurses who have not only caught covid but died from it as well.

 

[mojo pixy]

The sad face does not disguise the crowing noise, and that wouldn't even matter if we were talking about healthcare staff contracting diseases, instead of talking about staff passing diseases on.

 

[Shechemite]

The debate should be about government overreach, privacy, control, data, confidentiality, civil liberties...not vaccines ffs.

if you choose to ignore far worse government overreach and control, and removal of privacy, control, confidentiality, civil liberties etc, then why should you be taken seriously when (by complete coincidence) you get jittery when it’s government intrusion that is 1) regarding vaccines and 2) effects your own liberties, then people might not take your seriously.

Dunno if there's already a thread it's being discussed on, but what do people make of this?

Government must step in to prevent vaccine strong-arm tactics towards care staff | News, Press release | News | UNISON National

Companies should be informing not intimidating employees

www.unison.org.uk

Like, I think people should get the vaccine and refusing to get it is bad, but I also reckon I'm on the union's side here. Would anyone agree with what Barchester Healthcare's doing?

if those who access social care and/or their families express that they do not wish to be in contact with staff who haven’t been vaccinated, should their wishes be respected or does the revolution require that they take one for the team?

 

[mojo pixy]

if those who access social care and/or their families express that they do not wish to be in contact with staff who haven’t been vaccinated, should their wishes be respected or does the revolution require that they take on for the team?

No, IMO the choice to have vaccinated or unvaccinated staff should remain with service users. If someone doesn't want unvaccinated staff, that should be respected.

My issue is with service providers insisting staff be vaccinated, or being legally entitled to insist on their own account as employers.

 

[hitmouse]

if you choose to ignore far worse government overreach and control, and removal of privacy, control, confidentiality, civil liberties etc, then why should you be taken seriously when (by complete coincidence) you get jittery when it’s government intrusion that is 1) regarding vaccines and 2) effects your own liberties, then people might not take your seriously.

I mean, the fact that other, non-vaccine-related, forms of government overreach and control already exist and are worse doesn't automatically make vaccine-related forms of go&c justified, right? What about people who object to both of them?

if those who access social care and/or their families express that they do not wish to be in contact with staff who haven’t been vaccinated, should their wishes be respected or does the revolution require that they take one for the team?

Dunno, it's a tricky one. I suppose my starting point is that those people should also have access to the vaccine themselves, since presumably that makes it less of an issue? EDIT: mojo pixy's point above sounds reasonable to me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Dunno, it's a tricky one. I suppose my starting point is that those people should also have access to the vaccine themselves, since presumably that makes it less of an issue? EDIT: mojo pixy's point above sounds reasonable to me.

Less of an issue, but not a non-issue. Some people can't have vaccines (one of the reasons it's so important for the rest of us to have them), while others may not respond well to the vaccine - which is an important point here as those being cared for fall into the group in whom vaccine effectiveness is mostly likely to be compromised.

It isn't tricky for me. My starting point is to look for the most vulnerable group and make sure they're being protected. In this instance, the most vulnerable group is the people who depend on the care of others in their day-to-day lives. It's hard to think of a more vulnerable group in society.

Of course, worker rights need to be protected, and care workers are treated like shit in a myriad different ways, and has been pointed out, one of those ways is no doubt shite employers not getting them timely vaccination appointments, which is shocking. But I don't think requiring vaccination for face-to-face care is one of those mistreatments. In the situation we find ourselves in, with the whole world shut down and vulnerable people struggling to access the services they need, it's not an unreasonable thing to ask.

 

[WouldBe]

The sad face does not disguise the crowing noise, and that wouldn't even matter if we were talking about healthcare staff contracting diseases, instead of talking about staff passing diseases on.

Not disguising anything. The only way to irradicate this disease is by vaccinating everyone that can be vaccinated.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, IMO the choice to have vaccinated or unvaccinated staff should remain with service users. If someone doesn't want unvaccinated staff, that should be respected.

We're also often dealing with people who lack the capacity to express an opinion on the matter, mind you. My dad is an example of such a person.

 

[mojo pixy]

Did I need to add "or their advocate(s)"? I should have.

Service users or their advocates (if without capacity). Not employers.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Did I need to add "or their advocate(s)"? I should have.

Service users or their advocates (if without capacity). Not employers.

That assumes a system of advocates that works well, in which people don't fall through cracks. We don't live in that world.

 

[mojo pixy]

if service users lack advocacy I'd chalk up another one for shitty service provider. Giving a shitty service provider extra power over employees doesn't seem like it'll actually improve anything.

An employer / service provider should be able to manage the risks having unvaccinated staff (or service users) may present. If they don't want to bother, it's a condemnation of their attitude to the individuals who use and who provide the service.

Like I say, make vaccine sceptics care for covid cases till they agree to have the vaccine. Some may quit and that's probably fine, most will probably learn IMO. Don't just blanket everyone with a have to .. there's a wedge here, that we are at the thin end of.

Anyway, I feel like shit (lol guess why) so bowing out for now.

 

[Border Reiver]

Not disguising anything. The only way to irradicate this disease is by vaccinating everyone that can be vaccinated.

Not quite. Herd immunity occurs below full coverage (depends on the infective agent) so there is usually some leeway. Total eradication is close to impossible.

 

[Border Reiver]

No, IMO the choice to have vaccinated or unvaccinated staff should remain with service users. If someone doesn't want unvaccinated staff, that should be respected.

My issue is with service providers insisting staff be vaccinated, or being legally entitled to insist on their own account as employers.

That is certainly not the case in NHS hospitals. The hospital decides the rules and the patient has no right to know the vaccination or health status of staff.

 

[Border Reiver]

ah yes this is behaviour typical of the 'lying cunt'

 

[Shechemite]

the patient has no right to know the vaccination or health status of staff.

you have a reference for that?

 

[Border Reiver]

you have a reference for that?

Yes. Personal experience as a unit manager. If a patient asks the health status of any member of staff they get shirt shrift. The patient gets what is in offer from the hospital, not control over the staff. How would you feel about a client of yours wanting to know your health status?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. Personal experience as a unit manager. If a patient asks the health status of any member of staff they get shirt shrift. The patient gets what is in offer from the hospital, not control over the staff. How would you feel about a client of yours wanting to know your health status?

My recent experience doesn't quite chime with this. When I got my mum to ask about the vaccine status of my dad's carers, they were very eager to tell us that they'd all been vaccinated.

Not a right, perhaps, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask.

And this kind of passive 'take what you're given' attitude isn't good advice to anyone dealing with the NHS. Don't be a dick, but ask questions. Always ask questions. They don't always know best. Sometimes you know more than they do about what's wrong with you, particularly if you live with a chronic condition.