Norman Baker MP: Kelly's death may have been murder
- Thread starter TAE
- Start date
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
TAE said:
There isn't a war going on. Or have I missed something?
Ah, dr kelly again.
Not much of a claim is it, that he may have been murdered. That is obviously true.
Why, it may even have been suicide.
But personally i reckon that to be most unlikely. And anyone without an agenda on this forum, and anyone who has spent any time studying how the british establishment operate, will favour heavily the murder option.
But we'll never know, we never do. We're just left to our debates and arguments. The state must remain all powerful and that's the way of life.
Hence the term 'conspiracy theory', nicely inserted into the generally used lexicon in order to put a big fat layer of protection between the public and them getting to know the truths behind what those in the establishment do behind the glare of the media.
To be honest i reckon it ridiculous to think it was suicide. Absurd. It was so convenient not just for the labour leadership, but also for bush and his cabal. Fucking beautiful these coincidences aren't they. They do so favour those in power...
Not much of a claim is it, that he may have been murdered. That is obviously true.
Why, it may even have been suicide.
But personally i reckon that to be most unlikely. And anyone without an agenda on this forum, and anyone who has spent any time studying how the british establishment operate, will favour heavily the murder option.
But we'll never know, we never do. We're just left to our debates and arguments. The state must remain all powerful and that's the way of life.
Hence the term 'conspiracy theory', nicely inserted into the generally used lexicon in order to put a big fat layer of protection between the public and them getting to know the truths behind what those in the establishment do behind the glare of the media.
To be honest i reckon it ridiculous to think it was suicide. Absurd. It was so convenient not just for the labour leadership, but also for bush and his cabal. Fucking beautiful these coincidences aren't they. They do so favour those in power...
And none at all in Norman Baker's "dossier" ...TAE said:
skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
It all does seem a bit suspicious to me.I remember seeing the paramedics saying there were only 2 "squirts" of blood beside him.As for the overdose theory,well,that doesn't really stand up as he only had 2 pills in his system.Suicide statistics mean absolutely zero.If someones going to do it,they will.My father "committed" suicide 34 years ago.His death certificate says overdose simply because there was tablets lying around his body.In fact he died of alcohol poisoning.The overdose theory was thrown out 2 years later after legal challenge (my mother was also told the death certificate couldn't be changed).There were NO drugs in his system at all.It looked like he wanted to do it and was so drunk he spilled the tablets on the ground.On another point,If anyone saw the BBC documentary about death certificates a couple of weeks ago, approx 60% of ALL certificates issued from 2003-2005 were incorrect.Wrong cause of death(to cover up MRSA figures) to nothing less than incompetence.
I'm not saying Kelly WAS killed,but we don't know he wasn't.If there are questions to be answered it can't be just dismissed out of hand as conspiracy theorists usually are.
I'm not saying Kelly WAS killed,but we don't know he wasn't.If there are questions to be answered it can't be just dismissed out of hand as conspiracy theorists usually are.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
twopenneth:
Its just plausible that the secuity services could be involved - he was part of the unraveling of the security case for war; all this exposed lies on behalf of the govt/spooks etc. Equally, they have done it before - in Ireland specifically.... + the anomalies around the reports of his death add to 'doubts'.
Whether this is likely is a very different matter:
1. In Ireland, there were routine paramilitary murders - and so others who the security services could get to do the dirty work and, plausibly, take the rap.
2. Its most unlikely that 'they' (spooks) would risk doing this in such a high profile case. The impact of being found out would be catastrophic. this applies even more so to the idea that politicians could have been responsible
3. All the evidence is circumstantial - just the kind of anomalies you find around any unexplained suicide. There's no real evidence of specific actions by 'agents'
Having said all that, the security services and self seeking politicians do have a kind of 'responsibility' for his death - just not of the sort hinted at by Baker (who's report i haven't actually read
)
Its just plausible that the secuity services could be involved - he was part of the unraveling of the security case for war; all this exposed lies on behalf of the govt/spooks etc. Equally, they have done it before - in Ireland specifically.... + the anomalies around the reports of his death add to 'doubts'.
Whether this is likely is a very different matter:
1. In Ireland, there were routine paramilitary murders - and so others who the security services could get to do the dirty work and, plausibly, take the rap.
2. Its most unlikely that 'they' (spooks) would risk doing this in such a high profile case. The impact of being found out would be catastrophic. this applies even more so to the idea that politicians could have been responsible
3. All the evidence is circumstantial - just the kind of anomalies you find around any unexplained suicide. There's no real evidence of specific actions by 'agents'
Having said all that, the security services and self seeking politicians do have a kind of 'responsibility' for his death - just not of the sort hinted at by Baker (who's report i haven't actually read
)skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
editor said:
Dr Alexander Allan, the forensic toxicologist who examined Kelly's blood and urine, told the Hutton inquiry that although the levels he found were more than therapeutic, they were significantly lower than doses that would lead to death.
To me,that reads he didn't die of an overdose yet overdose is still on his death certificate.
"In particular, one group of doctors has pointed to the fact that the pathology report into Kelly's death revealed that the only artery completely severed was in his left wrist, called the ulnar artery. This is not the normal main radial artery that is used to take a pulse, but a small artery below the little finger which is hard to locate and lies deep within the wrist.
Martin Birnstingl was until recently president of the Vascular Surgical Society of Great Britain. He is a former consultant at St Bartholomew's Hospital in London and one of the country's most respected vascular surgeons.
Birnstingl said he believed it was 'extremely unlikely' for Kelly to have died by simply severing the ulnar artery. He explained that arteries have muscles around them that will constrict when severed, to prevent life-threatening loss of blood. 'It would spray blood around and make a mess. But after the blood pressure started to fall, the artery would contract and stop bleeding,' he said."
I believe the word of one our country's experts.So now it's also unlikely that he died from the cut on his wrist.
I certainly believe in chance and coincidence but it grows less likely the deeper you dig.
The Hutton report said Kelly's body was found with his head and shoulders 'slumped against a tree'. The judge said he had seen a photograph showing his body in that position. One of the first people to find Kelly, Louise Holmes, agreed that he was resting against a tree. But by the time Bartlett and Hunt (paramedics)arrived, Kelly was lying flat, some feet from the tree. Had someone moved him? Had his body been searched? Why the discrepancy? None of the police officers at the scene said they had touched the body.
More questions unanswered.
skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
editor said:
So it MUST be true? Why's he right and the other expert wrong? They can't both be right can they? I'm certainly no conspiracy theorist.I like reading about them but I do it with an open mind.I don't believe all the 911 inside job malarky because the evidence is flaky at best.Theres just something about this Kelly case that I find too convenient.If he was a relative of mine I wouldn't have accepted the "official" report.It's all about keeping an open mind and not to dismiss anything just because it doesn't fit in with what you want to believe.
Jonti said:
Possibly, having just cut his veins, Dr. Kelly might have been so shocked by what he'd done, that his heart gave out.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
4thwrite said:
the connection is clear.
skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
Maybe the owl ate the tablets and drank the blood that was missing.lol
fuck this thread is bollocks, complete speculation on both sides of the argument
i think its fair to say that given the state had the means, motive and opportunity to carry out this act, and that the evidence is inconclusive to say the least (and that the state also has a track record of such offences) that there should at least be a more serious investigation
imagine if a convicted murderer's wife committed suicide, it could be established that the murderer benefitted from the suicide and had the means to murder her and medical experts disagreed about the cause of death
wouldnt that warrant further investigation?
the anti-conspiraloons on this thread seem just as bad as the conspiraloons, his death fucking stinks just because it was so convenient, out of character etc
that doesnt mean any nefarious state involvement, but maybe a re-examination of the evidence would show up further facts
i sometimes think the anti-conspiraloons would have argued against complicity in murders in ireland, cia drug running and watergate with equal ferocity
sometimes you dont have evidence so you have to investigate further, sometimes you need to speculate, thats how stories get broken, someone smells a rat
the government does do dodgy things quite often you know
i think its fair to say that given the state had the means, motive and opportunity to carry out this act, and that the evidence is inconclusive to say the least (and that the state also has a track record of such offences) that there should at least be a more serious investigation
imagine if a convicted murderer's wife committed suicide, it could be established that the murderer benefitted from the suicide and had the means to murder her and medical experts disagreed about the cause of death
wouldnt that warrant further investigation?
the anti-conspiraloons on this thread seem just as bad as the conspiraloons, his death fucking stinks just because it was so convenient, out of character etc
that doesnt mean any nefarious state involvement, but maybe a re-examination of the evidence would show up further facts
i sometimes think the anti-conspiraloons would have argued against complicity in murders in ireland, cia drug running and watergate with equal ferocity
sometimes you dont have evidence so you have to investigate further, sometimes you need to speculate, thats how stories get broken, someone smells a rat
the government does do dodgy things quite often you know
skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
the government does do dodgy things quite often you know[/QUOTE]
I would have left out the "quite" lol
I would have left out the "quite" lol
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I don't think this is true at all. I - and i suspect other posters in this thread - don't have the slightest problem accepting that the state/politicians/the powerful/business gets involved in conspiracies. The word conspiracy simply means working together, in secret, to achieve your (often unpleasant) ends. This happens routinely - holding back harmful information on products, using agents to blacken or infiltrate campaigns - right through to death squads in latin America. Conspiracies - the covert operation of power - happen all the time and alongside the overt operation of power. The powerful get away with what they can depending on national circumstances, levels of opposition etc.smokedout said:
The key issue is whether it is reaonable to assume that a conspiracy has taken place - and indeed whether the story suggested by those seeking to expose it is plausible:
The notion that trade union activists are murdered by corporate/politically supported death squads in latin America - VERY PLAUSIBLE
The idea that that our leaders are themselves manipulated by hidden elites, lizards etc. - NOT PLAUSIBLE
The notion that David Kelly was offed by the security sevices - somewhere between the two (but, for my money, pretty unlikely)
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
A cut and paste from the Daily Mail (of all places) is below.
It does no good to label people raising questions as conspiriloons. Were the paramedics at the scene such loons or all the people and evidence cited below.
Once again, the official story is itself a conspiracy and a conjecture. As Mr Baker (a genuine guy in my experience) has stated, there is more than enough reason to re-open an investigation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His concerns begin with the method of Dr Kelly's supposed suicide, cutting a minor artery with a blunt gardening knife.
He would have been the only person that year to have successfully killed themselves that way in the UK.
The scientist's family and friends insist he had shown no sign of feeling suicidal. Emails and the minutes of meetings he attended also showed him behaving perfectly normally - and he was looking forward to his daughter's wedding.
Mr Baker also questions the painkillers Dr Kelly is said to have taken, not least because the levels found in his stomach were incompatible with his supposed consumption.
There are also basic questions about the police investigation - including the appearance beside Dr Kelly's body of a bottle of water, knife and watch which the people who found him say they did not see.
On the Hutton Inquiry itself, Mr Baker - whose conclusions were outlined in the Mail on Sunday - says Lord Hutton was completely out of his depth.
He had never chaired such an important inquiry and had a history of making pro-Government decisions as a judge. The MP claims Hutton was personally selected for the job by Tony Blair's close friend Charles Falconer, the Lord Chancellor.
The tragic story began in May 2003 when BBC radio journalist Andrew Gilligan alleged that the Government had deliberately 'sexed up' a dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction to justify an invasion.
The Government went on the offensive and eventually exposed Dr Kelly as the BBC man's source, a move which thrust the publicity-shy scientist into a media storm.
Days later, the 59-year-old father of three was found slumped under a tree five miles from his home in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
'More than enough cause to reopen the inquest' - Baker
The Government immediately set up an inquiry under Lord Hutton to investigate the death. The two-month probe concluded that the scientist had taken his own life.
Mr Baker has consistently been a thorn in the Government's side. He previously revealed former minister Peter Mandelson's links to the Hinduja brothers, who were granted British passports shortly after investing money to the Millennium Dome.
He claimed that since the Hutton Inquiry concluded, there has been 'growing public disquiet' about Dr Kelly's death.
He said: "Any reasonable person looking at the evidence would, at the very least, agree that further investigation is necessary.
"If it wasn't suicide, then clearly Dr Kelly was bumped off. My aim is to find out exactly what happened. Frankly, there is more than enough cause to reopen the inquest."
Mr Baker's investigation comes after three senior doctors claimed the official cause of death - a severed ulnar artery in the wrist - was extremely unlikely to be fatal.
David Halpin, Stephen Frost and Searle Sennett said: "Arteries in the wrist are of matchstick thickness and severing them does not lead to life-threatening blood loss."
Mr Baker said that, according to the Office for National Statistics, Dr Kelly was the only person in 2003 to kill themselves that way. He says a scientist would have cut a larger artery, ensuring a swift death.
Although Dr Kelly was facing intense pressure over his exposure as the BBC source, Mr Baker produces evidence that he did not appear depressed.
Two days before his death, he made jokes at a Government committee meeting. On the day he disappeared, he spoke of returning to Iraq in the future.
He was a member of the Baha'i faith, which forbids suicide, and one of his daughters was about to marry. Dr Kelly's sister Sarah Pape, a consultant plastic surgeon, told the Hutton Inquiry: "In my line of work I deal with people who may have suicidal thoughts, and I ought to be able to spot those even in a phone conversation.
"But I have gone over in my mind the two conversations we had and he certainly did not betray to me any impression that he was anything other than tired.
"He certainly did not convey to me that he was feeling depressed and absolutely nothing that would have alerted me to the fact that he may have been considering suicide."
It does no good to label people raising questions as conspiriloons. Were the paramedics at the scene such loons or all the people and evidence cited below.
Once again, the official story is itself a conspiracy and a conjecture. As Mr Baker (a genuine guy in my experience) has stated, there is more than enough reason to re-open an investigation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His concerns begin with the method of Dr Kelly's supposed suicide, cutting a minor artery with a blunt gardening knife.
He would have been the only person that year to have successfully killed themselves that way in the UK.
The scientist's family and friends insist he had shown no sign of feeling suicidal. Emails and the minutes of meetings he attended also showed him behaving perfectly normally - and he was looking forward to his daughter's wedding.
Mr Baker also questions the painkillers Dr Kelly is said to have taken, not least because the levels found in his stomach were incompatible with his supposed consumption.
There are also basic questions about the police investigation - including the appearance beside Dr Kelly's body of a bottle of water, knife and watch which the people who found him say they did not see.
On the Hutton Inquiry itself, Mr Baker - whose conclusions were outlined in the Mail on Sunday - says Lord Hutton was completely out of his depth.
He had never chaired such an important inquiry and had a history of making pro-Government decisions as a judge. The MP claims Hutton was personally selected for the job by Tony Blair's close friend Charles Falconer, the Lord Chancellor.
The tragic story began in May 2003 when BBC radio journalist Andrew Gilligan alleged that the Government had deliberately 'sexed up' a dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction to justify an invasion.
The Government went on the offensive and eventually exposed Dr Kelly as the BBC man's source, a move which thrust the publicity-shy scientist into a media storm.
Days later, the 59-year-old father of three was found slumped under a tree five miles from his home in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
'More than enough cause to reopen the inquest' - Baker
The Government immediately set up an inquiry under Lord Hutton to investigate the death. The two-month probe concluded that the scientist had taken his own life.
Mr Baker has consistently been a thorn in the Government's side. He previously revealed former minister Peter Mandelson's links to the Hinduja brothers, who were granted British passports shortly after investing money to the Millennium Dome.
He claimed that since the Hutton Inquiry concluded, there has been 'growing public disquiet' about Dr Kelly's death.
He said: "Any reasonable person looking at the evidence would, at the very least, agree that further investigation is necessary.
"If it wasn't suicide, then clearly Dr Kelly was bumped off. My aim is to find out exactly what happened. Frankly, there is more than enough cause to reopen the inquest."
Mr Baker's investigation comes after three senior doctors claimed the official cause of death - a severed ulnar artery in the wrist - was extremely unlikely to be fatal.
David Halpin, Stephen Frost and Searle Sennett said: "Arteries in the wrist are of matchstick thickness and severing them does not lead to life-threatening blood loss."
Mr Baker said that, according to the Office for National Statistics, Dr Kelly was the only person in 2003 to kill themselves that way. He says a scientist would have cut a larger artery, ensuring a swift death.
Although Dr Kelly was facing intense pressure over his exposure as the BBC source, Mr Baker produces evidence that he did not appear depressed.
Two days before his death, he made jokes at a Government committee meeting. On the day he disappeared, he spoke of returning to Iraq in the future.
He was a member of the Baha'i faith, which forbids suicide, and one of his daughters was about to marry. Dr Kelly's sister Sarah Pape, a consultant plastic surgeon, told the Hutton Inquiry: "In my line of work I deal with people who may have suicidal thoughts, and I ought to be able to spot those even in a phone conversation.
"But I have gone over in my mind the two conversations we had and he certainly did not betray to me any impression that he was anything other than tired.
"He certainly did not convey to me that he was feeling depressed and absolutely nothing that would have alerted me to the fact that he may have been considering suicide."
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Interesting, I didn't know that.
Anybody got a link to back that up?
I fear you fall into the trap of believing that EVERYTHING can be known if only the investigation is good enough and if the evidence is re-examined enough times.smokedout said:
Sometimes (quite often really) we simply CAN'T know something for sure because there is simply no evidence there to be found no matter how ace we are as detectives. Suicides are often in that category - if they are suicide only one person usually knows that for sure and they are usually not available for interview, if it is not suicide the other one(s) who know are not usually going to say anything. Did the jumper from the tower block jump, or were they pushed? Did the person under the train jump off the platform or were they pushed? Did the overdose victim voluntarily take the tablets or were they forced to? There are frequently no witnesses able to categorically say one way or the other and there is no physical trace evidence to be found.
As a society we get ourselves in a right tizzy over lots of things because we have been led to believe that everything can be known for sure. It can't. Frequently the best we can do is look for the best possible explanation on the basis of such known facts as there are and thoroughly investigate any new evidence (as opposed to gossip / rumour / allegation) which comes to light.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
it's true but in this case the conjecture is more that it was suicide... the medics who attended the scene thought it wasn't... there's been no evidence to suggest it was a suicide, no determining factors which indicate it was suicide... usually in those circumstances at the very least it would be regarded as a suspious death, or as is suspected foul play...editor said:
GarfieldLeChat said:
Interestingly i thought at the time, the only mainstream media that called it a 'suspected' suicide (or another similar adjective, can't remember now) was the bbc web site. All other media in britain just called it a suicide.
No doubt a D notice had something to do with that...
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
fela fan said:
Cute isn't he?
Bless him.
Hmm, a man under extreme public pressure, at risk of losing a career that meant a great deal to him, with stress related heart problems, is found dead with slit wrists and more painkillers in his system than he was meant to be taking.
A clear cut case of murder if I ever saw one.
A clear cut case of murder if I ever saw one.
Judging by the usual level of accuracy of what paramedics told me about the likely chances of survival of assault and accident victims ... I really don't think you should rely too much on their view.GarfieldLeChat said:
To be honest, I wondered why they ever bothered taking anyone to hospital ... "Nah, mate, no chance, he's a goner, loads of blood loss ..." followed two hours later by discharge from A&E having been cleaned up and had a couple of butterfly stitches in a pretty large paper cut ...
But it was. Thames Valley Police fully investigated it as an unexplained death. And I happen to know that their command team took a personal interest in making sure that everything was done thoroughly and corrected precisely because they realised from minute one that there could be a very different explanation ...GarfieldLeChat said:
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