I have had it with conspiracy theories

[Bob_the_lost]

The problem with conspiracy theorys on this site are when they go wrong. It's all too easy to claim that this event or that event is a conspiracy manipulated behind the scenes by some external force...

However when one of your stories gets shown to be utter bullshit the rest are tainted by association. The reputation you and bigfish, the two most prominent conspiracy theorists here, have is pretty poor for factual accuracy.

It's all your fault, you're too easily taken in by bollocks stories, so any that might be true get thrown out as well.

 

[Jazzz]

Odd, have you looked at the other side of the tuskagee story? Did a bit of background reading a while back on it as it infringed a topic i was studying. Most of the criticism is unfounded/wrong.

(It wasn't an experiment either, it was a study )

What do you mean the other side? Black men with syphilis were not told they had syphilis and allowed to die horribly when a course of penicillin would have cleared it up. Generations of them!

If there's a defense of this I'd like to hear it.

I think the word 'study' is inappropriate - 'monstrosity' perhaps.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

What do you mean the other side? Black men with syphilis were not told they had syphilis and allowed to die horribly when a course of penicillin would have cleared it up. Generations of them!

If there's a defense of this I'd like to hear it.

I think the word 'study' is inappropriate - 'monstrosity' perhaps.

You haven't read up on it then, i'll try and relocate the website, but you do know that the patients were selected for the lack of transmittable symptoms? Ie the syphillis was already there and had done it's damage?

(can't find it, don't care that much at the moment, sole comment is that none of the sites critisising the study seem to give any results for a 40 year long study. I did find a site giving a strong defence of the study a while back but i don't have the link anymore)

(It was never an experiment, there is an important difference there.)

 

[Jazzz]

But note again, you prove my point too, by making the issue personality-based, rather than the question of whether conspiracies exist (which they do).

Of course spotting the ones that are currently going on takes a bit more than the cosy alternative of believing what we are told spotting them later when/if they are revealed.

One of my first 'conspiracy theories' on these boards was to finger the cocktail of vaccines given to the troops as a possible cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Christ how I was dismissed for that! Yet it is now a mainstream view.

Likewise, they were laughing on the thread where I suggested that the USA started oil fires in Kuwait during Gulf War I so they could put them out themselves for $megabucks. Until someone cropped up whose uncle was there and confirmed it.

 

[888]

So feudalism was a conspiracy? If it was a conspiracy, they didn't do much to cover it up. Just the opium of the people helped the public not to see that 2+2=4, instead it equaled 46 plus God.

Ah, so therefore God = minus 42, i.e. the opposite of the meaning of the universe!

 

[Bob_the_lost]

But note again, you prove my point too, by making the issue personality-based, rather than the question of whether conspiracies exist (which they do).

Of course spotting the ones that are currently going on takes a bit more than the cosy alternative of believing what we are told spotting them later when/if they are revealed.

Like the conspiracy to vacinate people? Or maybe the conspiracy of the americans and framing of Ian Huntley?

It's all about reliabilty, you've got none. So in that way yes it's a personal issue, when you'll swallow any story stuck on the web you throw away any credit, your stories go from "possible" to "how long till it gets shown to be bollocks".

So cry wolf all you like.

 

[Jazzz]

The point is whether you believe what you are told, or are prepared to consider that it is hogwash. If the latter, you are a conspiracy theorist.

It's about making your own mind up on the evidence as you see it, and not looking for others to follow - whether Tony Blair, the BBC, or me, or bigfish.

However, I dare say I'm right far more often than my detractors. The reason I get so much stick over vaccines is that my end is surprisingly well held up in debate - ask techno303 or slaar.

With AIDS I can present Nobel Prize Winners to back me up, yet you guys will put the tinfoil hat on Kary Mullis!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

However, I dare say I'm right far more often than my detractors.

Er, no.

 

[Jazzz]

yes actually. But that's not the point, the point is we are all conspiracy theorists, unless you want to maintain that Blair thought Saddam had WMDs, and that the 'ricin' plot posed a grave threat to society, or that teenagers taking pictures of Old Trafford deserved 400 armed police whisking them off at the crack of dawn.

Where we differ is not on whether conspiracies exist; it's on which we personally consider are true, and which we personally consider are hatstand - the people that consider these are labelled 'conspiracy theorists', deragoratarily. A point which I daresay is being continually proved here.

 

[Clintons Cat]

yes actually. But that's not the point, the point is we are all conspiracy theorists, unless you want to maintain that Blair thought Saddam had WMDs, and that the 'ricin' plot posed a grave threat to society, or that teenagers taking pictures of Old Trafford deserved 400 armed police whisking them off at the crack of dawn.

Where we differ is not on whether conspiracies exist; it's on which we personally consider are true, and which we personally consider are hatstand - the people that consider these are labelled 'conspiracy theorists', deragoratarily. A point which I daresay is being continually proved here.

It seems to me Dr J,that those that are so quick to deride others as conspiracy theorists are too hung up/insecure about their own beliefs that they feel the need to denounce those they see as heretics.

Having said that i dont think we should discount the possibillity that some of the more "out-there" conspiracy theories are actually propagated by psy-ops,unless anyone labours under the impression that Full Spectrum Dominence somehow doesn't apply to the Internet.

Your arguement,as i understand it, and the position i support would be that by attempting to disect the conspiracy in a forensic manner,people would better understand the machinations of the state and how it manipulates its citizens into preparation for war/welfare cutbacks/identity cards or whatever.

Which is a point seemingly lost on those who cry for the Bin/Ban anytime something they personally feel uncomfortable with comes up.

(Hope this makes sense)

 

[bigfish]

Well said CC. You hit the nail on the head.

 

[fela fan]

It's all about reliabilty, you've got none. So in that way yes it's a personal issue, when you'll swallow any story stuck on the web you throw away any credit, your stories go from "possible" to "how long till it gets shown to be bollocks".

So cry wolf all you like.

You are lost mate. Your claim that drj has no reliability has no reliable proof to back it up. It is just your own take on things, and is demonstrably untrue coz to me, the man has plenty of reliability. Furthermore, you have no reason to claim that drj swallows every story stuck on the web. You couldn't possibly know this.

You are therefore standing on dodgy ground. And it's just your opinion that those that conspire to steal from others like to encourage. Let the fodder fight among themselves, they'll never investigate us properly.

 

[Loki]

Well you certainly proved mine, unfortunately it seems quite beyond you

Just a couple of your threads:

- "Huntley is innocent!" [based on the ramblings of Aussie fruitcake Vialls]


- "AA flights didn't exist!" [proved embarassingly wrong when both myself and Fridgemagnet took the trouble to actually email the authorities and posted up the replies]



I don't think it's me who's missing the picture. I think it's you, who believes the ramblings of any fruitloop on the internet, so long as they support your conspiranoid worldview.

 

[fela fan]

I don't think it's me who's missing the picture. I think it's you, who believes the ramblings of any fruitloop on the internet, so long as they support your conspiranoid worldview.

With this one single example you amply provide proof that you are missing the larger picture mate, which is exactly what drj pointed out.

You just have no idea whether drjazzz believes the ramblings of 'any fruitloop' on the internet.

To claim this, and to constantly regurgitate your two examples where you believe he got it wrong, shows you to be standing on very thin ground indeed on this particular topic. Be careful, there's a long way down...

 

[Loki]

You just have no idea whether drjazzz believes the ramblings of 'any fruitloop' on the internet.

To claim this, and to constantly regurgitate your two examples where you believe he got it wrong, shows you to be standing on very thin ground indeed on this particular topic. Be careful, there's a long way down...

I'm rather afraid I do, and I only quoted two examples for brevity. You more than others must know how many conspiracy threads DrJ has launched where he's been shown to be very wrong.

Those two stick out in my mind, the Huntley one just because it was so so utterly wrong and misguided, and the "AA flights didn't exist!" thread because it shows how little DrJ is interested in researching facts himself but will just go along with any fruitcake on the internet and proclaim it as gospel.

I know you'll always stick up for DrJ even when you think he's wrong, because you're a dedicated conspiracy fan yourself.

 

[fela fan]

...You more than others must know how many conspiracy threads DrJ has launched where he's been shown to be very wrong.

...

I know you'll always stick up for DrJ even when you think he's wrong, because you're a dedicated conspiracy fan yourself.

Like i said, you're missing the bigger picture by remaining captive to your filtered perceptions, as amply demonstrated here.

Firstly i have never viewed any of drj's threads as being 'conspiracy' threads, that is the way you view them, not me.

Secondly i have no idea how many threads he's started where, as you put it, he has been 'proved' wrong ('shown to be very wrong', take your pick).

And get this mate: i don't 'always' stick up for drj, nor do i ever stick up for him if i believe him to be wrong (i recall keeping quite on one particular occasion). I stick up for what i believe to be fair and just, irregardless of who is saying or doing what.

And as for me being a 'dedicated conspiracy fan', nothing could be further from the truth in my life, yet you have declared this as fact. Unbelievable!! A total non-fact, a baseless slur (although i don't take offence), all presented as fact and truth. Ahh, such is quality debate eh!

I'm not a fan of anyfuckingthing in politics thank you very much. But i'm a realist: i don't expect to find any truths or facts in the media, nor do i expect any politician to speak any truths to me or anyone else. I expect them all to be chasing their own agenda, and since that'll be at the expense of others, then lying and/or criminality is the order of the day.

Which in reality means board meetings where businessmen plot how to outdo (or even get rid of) their competitors, or political meetings where they plot how to consolidate and expand their power base. In both cases, if the belief exists that they won't get caught, then planning illegal actions causes no second thought.

It is these meetings that contain conspiracy. I am not a fucking fan of those meetings thank you very much. But i know they're going on. By reading your posts on the matter, you appear to think nothing of the sort happens because you constantly refer to conspiracy 'theory'.

It's out there, it's happening mate. Denying it won't help anybody, least of all yourself. Wake up, open your mind, and smell the bigger picture mate.

 

[Loki]

Like i said, you're missing the bigger picture by remaining captive to your filtered perceptions, as amply demonstrated here.

LOL - you're on about these "perspective filters" of yours again. Next you'll be telling me of your baffling theory about mirrors.

 

[fela fan]

LOL - you're on about these "perspective filters" of yours again. Next you'll be telling me of your baffling theory about mirrors.

I don't have any baffling theories, just a sound one. You remain baffled, but you cannot extend that to mean that the theory is baffling itself.

[and in any case, my mirror stuff is not theory, it is practice; it has grown from the seed of theory into the fruit of practice, and it's entirely provable.]

This is the bigger picture you are missing. Instead of being derisive about such things, why not give it a chance at unravelling what i mean?

And i note you passed up on the oppo of asking me to clarify things for you by pm. Interesting.

 

[Loki]

I don't have any baffling theories, just a sound one. You remain baffled, but you cannot extend that to mean that the theory is baffling itself.

[and in any case, my mirror stuff is not theory, it is practice; it has grown from the seed of theory into the fruit of practice, and it's entirely provable.]

aha. So what is this "mirror stuff" and how is it provable.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

aha. So what is this "mirror stuff" and how is it provable.

They tend to reflect light, rather clever things really, the process of making them is facinating!

Felan, you are a conspiracy fan, while you are on the more reliable edge of conspiracy theorys you're in with bigfish. Perspective filters indeed, very useful things aren't they. After all bigfish always (i can't remember a case of the reverse, feel free to link me to a correction) takes the line that the US/UK gov is evil and conspiring behind the scenes. You take a slightly more rational, or maybe just less vocal version of this line.

DrJ, you won't be proven right, sorry mate

 

[fela fan]

loki...

They tend to reflect light, rather clever things really, the process of making them is facinating!

Felan, you are a conspiracy fan,

Now then, thank you bob the lost for helping me help loki!

Loki, there is a man called bob the lost, and one called fela fan (not felan, bob the lost!).

Now bob the lost is bob the lost according to bob the lost.

Same goes for fela fan.

But, bob the lost reckons fela fan is a conspiracy fan. But fela fan knows fela fan is not a conspiracy fan, and unless fela fan is irrational, insane, or plain pig-headead/deceitful, then that must be taken as a fact.

So why does bob the lost think fela fan is a conspiracy fan? Since fela fan has now told him fela fan is not a conspiracy fan, then what bob thinks i am is more down to himself than anything that fela fan is. The very fact that bob has decided fela fan is a conspiracy fan is down to bob's own set of rules, laws, morals, understandings, experiences (all of which judge external things only having gone through the host's perceptive filter). Fela fan in this instance acts as a mirror.

So should bob wish to examine this particular aspect of his character/life experience to find out why he was wrong, then he can self-analyse by looking in the mirror, ie in this situation fela fan.

If that doesn't make sense then fair dos. But in essence when we level a judgement at somebody, we are really exposing our own belief system rather than necessarily being accurate about the object of our judgement. That object can very accurately however act as a mirror to the self.

 

[fela fan]

Felan, you are a conspiracy fan, while you are on the more reliable edge of conspiracy theorys you're in with bigfish. Perspective filters indeed, very useful things aren't they. After all bigfish always (i can't remember a case of the reverse, feel free to link me to a correction) takes the line that the US/UK gov is evil and conspiring behind the scenes. You take a slightly more rational, or maybe just less vocal version of this line.

Bob, i used to be a lot more vocal, certainly over 911. But four times i've been threatened with a ban, three by editor, and one recently by fridgemagnet. Each time it was for expressing my opinions on the topic of 911.

I see that topic as the pre-eminent story of the modern day, and it is completely unexplored by the mass media.

I am also much less vocal these days on urban since it has unfortunately taken a quality dip. There's still the odd quality piece on this forum, with a few good posters still around, albeit less frequently so these days.

Bigfish is one of the few that is insightful, humourous, and most importantly hard-hitting and one who never sold out.

Have you seen the record of US foreign policy over the last 60 years or so? If you know the full extent of their actions, then you'd understand bigfish and where he's coming from. If you don't know, then i suggest you read up on it!

And i'm not talking for bigfish here at all, he may well wish to agree or disagree with your appraisal of him.

 

[camouflage]

Christ there is some utter wank on this thread.

We are all conspiracy theorists.

Or what was Watergate exactly? The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment? The sinking of the Maine? The Reichstag Fire? Our Porton Down sarin experiments? The USG's cocaine dealings with the contras in Nicaragua?

Do posters on this thread really think that Bush/Blair launched war in Iraq because we were worried about his weapons capabilities? Or did they conspire to mislead public opinion to launch a phoney war for which the oil ecomony had a lot to do with?

The point is such conspiracies can and do exist, and we are all conspiracy theorists; apart from a very few blissfully ignorant who believe that the CIA's $multi-million covert operations budget is spent on basket-weaving.

What separates us is not whether they do or not, because we all know there are such conspiracies, but which ones it is our personal belief are true, and which are not. We label the people that believe the ones we don't 'conspiracy theorists', and think we are all so terribly clever, instead of small and quite possibly closed minded.

Good point there about the annual budget of the Conspiracy Institute of America.

It is possible for two mutually exlusive perceptions of the world to be equally existant at the exact same time.

-I.

Life is immense!

-The Legend of 1900

 

[pk]

What do you mean the other side? Black men with syphilis were not told they had syphilis and allowed to die horribly when a course of penicillin would have cleared it up. Generations of them!

If there's a defense of this I'd like to hear it.

I think the word 'study' is inappropriate - 'monstrosity' perhaps.

Funny - why have you claimed in the past - several times - that vaccinations are worse than the actual disease???



A contradictory conspiranoid! My favourite!

 

[kyser_soze]

So, odds on when the first 'MI5 behind London bombings' thread then?

 

[Jazzz]

I'm sorry pk but I'm just not in the mood for your boot-kicking today.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

So, odds on when the first 'MI5 behind London bombings' thread then?

Two days max.

(but it'll be the CIA, or the wolf brigade who took a wrong turn at the Oasis)

 

[pk]

I'm sorry pk but I'm just not in the mood for your boot-kicking today.

And I'm not in the mood for your shit-stirring conspiracy lies today.

Or any other day.

Funny how you say one minute that all vaccines are evil then extoll the virtues of penicillin the next.

Do you actually suffer from some kind of mental disorder, if so I'll make allowances for it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

At what point does reality stop and conspiracy theory begin? There's a line somewhere to be drawn, so where is it?

 

[Jazzz]

And I'm not in the mood for your shit-stirring conspiracy lies today.

Or any other day.

Funny how you say one minute that all vaccines are evil then extoll the virtues of penicillin the next.

Do you actually suffer from some kind of mental disorder, if so I'll make allowances for it.

look you utter twat - everyone else knows the difference between vaccines and antibiotics.

Can't you stop shit-stirring for one fucking day?