My silly idea again: earn your age

[Citizen66]

So we're seriously discussing this as a viable option? Rather recognising that it's just pub-speak, intended for everyone to say, "yeah that's a great idea!" without meaning one word of it?

It isn't too different from statist communism though, the only thing veering from the path is an increase in pay related to age.

It also might sound a lot of money but the amounts will be subjective to what money is actually worth in that society. But if it does away with inheritance and snidey elites who have everything sewn up and recognises labour as the only true currency then I'm all for it, obviously.





















But prefer anarchism.

 

[scifisam]

So a 30-year-old doctor, in a job that requires extremely high levels of skill and responsibility, years of training and very long hours while working, would get paid the same as a leaflet distributor?

So we're seriously discussing this as a viable option? Rather recognising that it's just pub-speak, intended for everyone to say, "yeah that's a great idea!" without meaning one word of it?

Apparently.

 

[kabbes]

There are so many obvious pitfalls with the idea that it can only be offered as a thought experiment (to be generous) or pub-talk (to not). Either of which is cool, of course. But to debate it as if it were a serious suggestion seems like the wrong way to go, either way up.

 

[ivebeenhigh]

There are so many obvious pitfalls with the idea that it can only be offered as a thought experiment (to be generous) or pub-talk (to not). Either of which is cool, of course. But to debate it as if it were a serious suggestion seems like the wrong way to go, either way up.

note the man who earns more than his age

 

[DotCommunist]

A far better idea would be to asset strip the top 15% (thats you as well kabbes). Re-distribute the money and properties, and kick the 15% out of the country. They have their off shore accounts in tax havens to keep them going. No announcing it before hand, lest they try to stash it away. Freeze the accounts and seize the properties.

 

[Citizen66]

So a 30-year-old doctor, in a job that requires extremely high levels of skill and responsibility, years of training and very long hours while working, would get paid the same as a leaflet distributor?

I'm not sure that 'leaflet distributors' would be needed in a post-capitalist society but I don't see why a doctor should be financially recognised as being more important to society than a refuse collector.

So we're seriously discussing this as a viable option? Rather recognising that it's just pub-speak, intended for everyone to say, "yeah that's a great idea!" without meaning one word of it?

Feel free to join in kabbes instead of making noises of discouragement from the sidelines.

 

[kabbes]

You think that this proposal, as is, is worthy of serious consideration then, Citizen? For real?

 

[kabbes]

A far better idea would be to asset strip the top 15% (thats you as well kabbes). Re-distribute the money and properties, and kick the 15% out of the country. They have their off shore accounts in tax havens to keep them going. No announcing it before hand, lest they try to stash it away. Freeze the accounts and seize the properties.

I don't have any money at all off-shore. I would be destitute, with naught but my wits and cunning to rely on.

 

[Santino]

I would be destitute, with naught but my wits and cunning to rely on.

You are so fucked.

 

[scifisam]

I'm not sure that 'leaflet distributors' would be needed in a post-capitalist society but I don't see why a doctor should be financially recognised as being more important to society than a refuse collector.

Because of the aforementioned years of training and high levels of skill and responsibility. Unless you think that a refuse collector has similar levels of skills, responsibility and training as a doctor?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Because of the aforementioned years of training and high levels of skill and responsibility. Unless you think that a refuse collector has similar levels of skills, responsibility and training as a doctor?

Your training is paid for by the state and you take the responsibility as a matter of public service.

It isn't any different from what happens in voluntary clubs/societies already. In a martial arts dojo, senior students gradually take on more responsibilities for teaching, organising training etc. They don't do it for money, they do it because they want the dojo to flourish and because somebody else did the same for them before. In short, they do it because they can, they recognise that somebody has to and they decide that that somebody will be them.

Fnumbers asked whether this could be done under capitalism, and the answer is clearly no because capitalism functions by attaching a monetary value to work according to its value to capital, balanced against the worker's leverage to demand that value. But I think it's a bit of a failure of the imagination not to be able to see past capitalism's wealth distribution and the assumptions that underpin it.

 

[scifisam]

Your training is paid for by the state and you take the responsibility as a matter of public service.

It isn't any different from what happens in voluntary clubs/societies already. In a martial arts dojo, senior students gradually take on more responsibilities for teaching, organising training etc. They don't do it for money, they do it because they want the dojo to flourish and because somebody else did the same for them before. In short, they do it because they can, they recognise that somebody has to and they decide that that somebody will be them.

Fnumbers asked whether this could be done under capitalism, and the answer is clearly no because capitalism functions by attaching a monetary value to work according to its value to capital, balanced against the worker's leverage to demand that value. But I think it's a bit of a failure of the imagination not to be able to see past capitalism's wealth distribution and the assumptions that underpin it.

Being a leader at a dojo or at a community group is nothing like the level of responsibility involved in being a doctor - it's not even in the same country, let alone the same ballpark.

We've all been through this before, anyway. Some of you think that all jobs should be paid the same and that that would not deter people from doing the jobs that are really difficult and have huge responsibility. Some of us disagree. We're never going to persuade each other.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you're serious about making money, you don't become a doctor. If money's your motivation, you do something easy to make loads of it like kabbes does.

I don't agree at all, and there are plenty of examples of people who take on massive responsibility because it gives them tremendous personal satisfaction to do so.

 

[scifisam]

If you're serious about making money, you don't become a doctor. If money's your motivation, you do something easy to make loads of it like kabbes does.

I don't agree at all, and there are plenty of examples of people who take on massive responsibility because it gives them tremendous personal satisfaction to do so.

Haven't you ever met any doctors? The pay is one of the things that keeps them in the job when the work gets really tough. Some of them also are doing it for the money - and they make way more than kabbes.

There are people like who will take on responsibility for the fun of it, yep. Not enough for our medical system, though, especially people who have that willingness combined with the actual ability to perform the job. I'm bloody glad there will never exist a world where every job got paid the same, because anyone who needed a doctor would be fucked.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Being a doctor would be considered a splendid thing to do. You would be selected for medical school on ability and all your training would be fully funded. Money would not be anybody's motivation. It would be a very different mindset, but there would be just as much motivation to make something of your life, to fulfil your potential, to do worthwhile things. Why on Earth wouldn't you?

By your reckoning, it is only shortage that keeps us all going. If we were to reach a point where we could supply everyone easily, a Star Trek-style future, we'd all be fucked because nobody would want positions of responsibility.

 

[scifisam]

Being a doctor would be considered a splendid thing to do. You would be selected for medical school on ability and all your training would be fully funded. Money would not be anybody's motivation. It would be a very different mindset, but there would be just as much motivation to make something of your life, to fulfil your potential, to do worthwhile things. Why on Earth wouldn't you?

Like I said, we've been through all this before. I'm not quite bored enough to engage in another game of 'people would do it for the pleasure!' 'no, they wouldn't,' 'yes they would!' You're insanely optimistic, but there are much worse forms of insanity.

 

[DotCommunist]

*obligatory mention of Cuban medical systems*

 

[scifisam]

*obligatory mention of Cuban medical systems*

I thought Communist countries tended to reward doctors etc in other ways, like with housing. Also, people are not free to leave the country.

 

[DotCommunist]

Cuba exports a hell of a lot of doctors although iirc they get the training and then have to work in the cuban medical system for a few years on rubbish wages before they can leave and earn big wedge in miami etc.

 

[scifisam]

Cuba exports a hell of a lot of doctors although iirc they get the training and then have to work in the cuban medical system for a few years on rubbish wages before they can leave and earn big wedge in miami etc.

Don't be silly, Dotty. They'd stay and be doctors for the love of it.

 

[citygirl]

Sorry guys, haven't read the whole fred.. but could somebody be kind enough to fill me in on A) What would happen to us poor old worthless single parent/family providers...(seeing as we actually do the hardest, and most worthwhile job in the entire universe) It's difficult to find jobs that will fit in with school hours, or indeed the childcare that is needed for those jobs.. and B) All the other groups of people not "fit" or available for work...

Thanks

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So we're seriously discussing this as a viable option? Rather recognising that it's just pub-speak, intended for everyone to say, "yeah that's a great idea!" without meaning one word of it?

There are two different levels to a debate like this. First, there is a debate as to what would be an ideal organisation of society. Second, there is the debate about how we could set about working towards getting there from here.

This is a debate of the first kind, but no less valid for that. If you don't have a clear idea of what your ideal society would be, how can you work towards anything?

 

[DotCommunist]

Don't be silly, Dotty. They'd stay and be doctors for the love of it.

well, Cuba has an excellent health service by all accounts better than the USA generally. So I'd say it works. I'm not a fan on relying on people to be fair, at least not in our present model. Force fairness for long enough and get results enough until acting in an avaricious manner becomes to be seen as a mental illness. Cuba, of course, has to run a strong-man socialist model in a sea of 'free' market capitalism.

 

[kabbes]

The issue of whether everybody in every job should be paid the same is a completely different question. I can see arguments both ways for that. This is about paying a 60 year-old three times as much as a 20 year-old, regardless of all other factors.

 

[DotCommunist]

Which, as I said would lead to a shit gerontocracy. Not that there aren't factors that make the average young person better off than the average old person. But it of course comes down to class, not age as the relevant factor. The wealth disparity between Morag, 78 from glasgow and on a state pittance and Tarquin, 25 from surrey and working in the city is as bald as can be.

 

[kabbes]

Which, as I said would lead to a shit gerontocracy.

Exactly. We're still dealing with a free market capitalist economy, just one that has this bizarre determining factor in wages to deal with too.

Not that there aren't factors that make the average young person better off than the average old person. But it of course comes down to class, not age as the relevant factor.

This is a bit trickier. The second bit is true, and that makes the first bit not necessarily true. It comes down to whether the old person managed to acquire house ownership before the housing boom.

 

[scifisam]

well, Cuba has an excellent health service by all accounts better than the USA generally. So I'd say it works. I'm not a fan on relying on people to be fair, at least not in our present model. Force fairness for long enough and get results enough until acting in an avaricious manner becomes to be seen as a mental illness. Cuba, of course, has to run a strong-man socialist model in a sea of 'free' market capitalism.

Having better over all healthcare than the USA isn't saying much.

I do like the idea of avariciousness being seen as less acceptable over time - that could happen. But you don't have to be avaricious to want an extra incentive to do a job that is so, so much more difficult and more taxing on the soul than most other jobs. Does Cuba offer tangible incentives like housing to its doctors? I bet it does.

 

[kabbes]

I wouldn't do my job unless it was well paid, both because the responsibility is something I'd rather not have and because, well, it's boring. But in a completely non-capitalist society, my job in its current form wouldn't exist in any case. It's difficult to compare the effects of wage equality on different societies precisely because of this bugger factor.

 

[DotCommunist]

Having better over all healthcare than the USA isn't saying much.

I do like the idea of avariciousness being seen as less acceptable over time - that could happen. But you don't have to be avaricious to want an extra incentive to do a job that is so, so much more difficult and more taxing on the soul than most other jobs. Does Cuba offer tangible incentives like housing to its doctors? I bet it does.

I'd think so, yes. That is generally how big state communism does things. Obligation/reward etc.

And of course you want a tangible incentive for such jobs like cleaning out the sewers or spending 8 hours a day loading/unloading lorries. Such jobs as these don't become necessary if the polity as a whole looks to them. And the incentive is their, tout the hours at worthwhile rates and anyone who cares to train in emptying bins and running a floor-buffer can. Obviously that could not apply to more complex infrastructure maintenance but the idea is pretty simple. The problem with participatory economics is that the people at the top end of the structure wouldn't make so much money.

And that is the idea of business. To make money. The idea that a service might run as a thing to pay its' workers fairly and make a modest enough profit to keep up the infrastructure that serves the customer is pretty alien to neoliberalist capitalism.

 

[Gromit]

Haven't read the whole thread but isn't it usually the case that the older you get the less money you generally tend to need.

More earlier on when you are setting yourself up with a home, wife, kids etc. and less when the mortgage is paid off, the kids have left home and you are too old and tired to go clubbing any more etc.

So this system would give most to those that need it less and least to those that need it most.