Mass stabbing at Southport Kids’ Club 29/7/24

[ElizabethofYork]

There's some really scary anti-immigrant stuff on social media in the wake of this. Conspiracy theories all over the place about the police lying about the blokes's background and age.

 

[gosub]

Even if the best that can be done is to slow down the amplification of this shit, it’s still worth doing.

If it impacts on this cunts right to a free and fair trial then no. Has to be as by the book as possible.

 

[Silas Loom]

If it impacts on this cunts right to a free and fair trial then no. Has to be as by the book as possible.

Don’t really see how it could. I doubt there will be a trial. Not like the Bulger case, he was apprehended at the scene.

 

[Chz]

There's some really scary anti-immigrant stuff on social media in the wake of this. Conspiracy theories all over the place about the police lying about the blokes's background and age.

This sort of shit is going to end in broken windows and other such hate.

 

[bluescreen]

The police and media have so far carefully avoided mentioning the sex of all the victims, even though they have given some info about the 17 year old boy they arrested. So it's being framed as an attack on children, rather than an attack specifically on little girls - even though, it's alleged, the suspect took a taxi to the venue for this very purpose. Perhaps they are anxious not to whip up any fear of misogyny.

 

[Silas Loom]

The police and media have so far carefully avoided mentioning the sex of all the victims, even though they have given some info about the 17 year old boy they arrested. So it's being framed as an attack on children, rather than an attack specifically on little girls - even though, it's alleged, the suspect took a taxi to the venue for this very purpose. Perhaps they are anxious not to whip up any fear of misogyny.

Eh? The three girls dead so far have all been named now.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Broadmoor is still there, the Victorian part is closed down but a modern hospital is on the same site. He’ll probably start out at Rampton though.

No words for what’s happened, just utterly stunned and shudder to think of how the parents are feeling and how the survivors will cope.

that depends entirely on whether he is actually Mentally Ill and thus eligible for a S37 MHA detention with (likely) or without (unlikely ) S41 restrictions / diagnosable with a Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder

Choice of Establishment with in the high secure hospital system depends on a number of factors for men who require High Security Hospital placements as the suspect in this case is reported to be a man whose normal place of residence is in the Northwest then potentially he could go to Ashworth as that is a High Security Hospital for male patients , although if there are co morbidities ( d/Deaf / Learning disabilities / Personality Disorders ) he might be placed at Rampton instead due to their specific services for those groups .

if he were in the South of England and didn't require one of the specialist units at Rampton he may well go to Broadmoor.

at present the female High Secure Hospital population is at Rampton

also relevant ot note that there is a wider network of medium secure units Hospitals which have security measures equivalent to cat B or C prisons and the low secure estate as well...

 

[bluescreen]

Eh? The three girls dead so far have all been named now.

Yes. But they aren't the only victims are they.

ETA one man was stabbed in the leg when he went to help, but he wasn't the initial target.

 

[barlimo]

“Where are you from…. but where are you really from…?”

 

[InArduisFouette]

The police and media have so far carefully avoided mentioning the sex of all the victims, even though they have given some info about the 17 year old boy they arrested. So it's being framed as an attack on children, rather than an attack specifically on little girls - even though, it's alleged, the suspect took a taxi to the venue for this very purpose. Perhaps they are anxious not to whip up any fear of misogyny.

until such time as it comes to trial we won't know the motivations of the attack, but i do wonder if the intended victim is the teacher or someone assisting the teacher for some percieved slight towards the attacker

 

[barlimo]

WTF has that got to do with it?

 

[Silas Loom]

Yes. But they aren't the only victims are they.

ETA one man was stabbed in the leg when he went to help, but he wasn't the initial target.

True, but a) the 6-12 year old Taylor Swift fan demographic is pretty well understood to skew female, and b) there’s no public policy reason not to whip up fear of misogynists - in fact, there’s considerable effort going on to ensure that misogyny is understood as a hate crime.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Because?

short-term benefit (possibly - I'm not totally convinced there is one) vs long-term harm.

 

[planetgeli]

Why report that he has Rwandan heritage? To forestall fuckwitted Twitter Islamophobia, as Spymaster spotted earlier. That’s a good cause in which to disclose ethnicity.

Hooray for the (temporary) stalling of Islamophobia.

Not so much for common or garden racism though eh? Which, as you know, Twitter is also full of.

So no. It doesn't help much at all.

 

[Skinny Ethel]

Extremely distressing thinking about parents and friends of the injured and who witnessed this event. Cannot get my head around it at all.

 

[Silas Loom]

Hooray for the (temporary) stalling of Islamophobia.

Not so much for common or garden racism though eh? Which, as you know, Twitter is also full of.

So no. It doesn't help much at all.

Nothing to say to this beyond what Chz did in #112.

 

[trashpony]

Yes. But they aren't the only victims are they.

ETA one man was stabbed in the leg when he went to help, but he wasn't the initial target.

They’re all female apart from the one guy from the office in the same building.

It’s femicide.

 

[Sue]

True, but a) the 6-12 year old Taylor Swift fan demographic is pretty well understood to skew female, and b) there’s no public policy reason not to whip up fear of misogynists - in fact, there’s considerable effort going on to ensure that misogyny is understood as a hate crime.

It's not going massively well from what I can see. (This is from May 23.)

'The Law Commission recommended that misogyny should not be made a hate crime. This was based on a lack of stakeholder consensus on how the proposal would work, and what the benefits might be. They noted that it could add unhelpful complexity to the prosecution of Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG) by creating a ‘hierarchy’ of offences.'

Hate Crime in the UK: the Law Commission's recommendations | EHRC

www.equalityhumanrights.com

 

[JimW]

It's not going massively well from what I can see. (This is from May 23.)

'The Law Commission recommended that misogyny should not be made a hate crime. This was based on a lack of stakeholder consensus on how the proposal would work, and what the benefits might be. They noted that it could add unhelpful complexity to the prosecution of Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG) by creating a ‘hierarchy’ of offences.'

Hate Crime in the UK: the Law Commission's recommendations | EHRC

www.equalityhumanrights.com

I noted in the recent attack in Croatia the officer interviewed in the story mentioned the attacker was likely to be charged with femicide, so presume it's on the books there (checked and came in just this year.) Presume they looked at the international experience before deciding to reject?

 

[planetgeli]

Presume they looked at the international experience before deciding to reject?

Probably as far as the USA.

But not Mexico.

 

[Spymaster]

So if I did something, they'd report that my parents came from Scotland?

If you had murdered 3 little girls and injured many others, there'd be very little about your life that wouldn't be reported on. The fact that both of your parents are (presumably) white, and British, and you are too, may reduce the "interest in ethnicity" factor somewhat, but yes; it would eventually be reported that your parents are Scottish.

When a person of colour, or with an unusual name, or some other characteristic out of the ordinary or mundane, commits a crime of this magnitude, it's perfectly understandable that there'd be speculation as to their background. Some of that will be grounded in racism but not all of it by any means.

It seemed common knowledge late yesterday that this was not a white perpetrator. Given that similar high profile attacks in the UK have been (exclusively?) Islamic terror related, there will obviously be speculation as to whether this follows that pattern, and if it doesn't the actual background of the murderer is most definitely a matter of public interest.

 

[pbsmooth]

"seems he was a bellend on an internet forum, sarge"

 

[xenon]

The police and media have so far carefully avoided mentioning the sex of all the victims, even though they have given some info about the 17 year old boy they arrested. So it's being framed as an attack on children, rather than an attack specifically on little girls - even though, it's alleged, the suspect took a taxi to the venue for this very purpose. Perhaps they are anxious not to whip up any fear of misogyny.

They’ve literally just named them. Including the background of one. Portuguese.

 

[bluescreen]

They’ve literally just named them. Including the background of one. Portuguese.

They have named the dead victims.
RIP

But they keep referring to the victims generally, including those gravely injured, as 'children', not girls. They won't name the surviving victims for obvious reasons of privacy. But they might dignify them by calling them girls.

This is a horrible crime so I don't want to argue any more about it.

 

[barlimo]

Misogyny is almost certainly at play here.

I think you should wait a bit before making pronouncements like that.

 

[andysays]

I think you should wait a bit before making pronouncements like that.

No, I think that even if it turns out that one of the injured victims is a boy, perhaps the brother of one of girls who went to the event with her, it's still reasonable to say, as Lotte has, that misogyny is almost certainly at play here.

Other factors may also be involved, but to dismiss misogyny altogether as a possible factor isn't believable.

 

[ouirdeaux]

People with Scottish parents commit the vast majority of crime in Scotland, the government should do something about this!

People with parents commit all the crime in Scotland, and everywhere else for that matter. Let's get rid of them all.

 

[barlimo]

No, I think that even if it turns out that one of the injured victims is a boy, perhaps the brother of one of girls who went to the event with her, it's still reasonable to say, as Lotte has, that misogyny is almost certainly at play here.

Other factors may also be involved, but to dismiss misogyny altogether as a possible factor isn't believable.

OK I'll leave it to you and Sherlock.

 

[Flavour]

This obsessing over the background of the perpetrator and also the denial of their background potentially being any sort of influencing factor over their cime is similary distracting.

There is a serious problem with femicide and violent misogyny in society and it is getting worse.

Serious mental health issues are not an excuse to justify or explain away crimes, they are another widespread social consequence of alienation.

I don't really care that much where the perpetrator was born: I care about what YouTube/TikTok/Instagram channels he was following and what environments he was exposed to outside of school. It's a complex question and the dynamic will be unique to this perperator but there are lots and lots of young men out there who are similarly close to "crossing that line" to physical violence -- it may be useful to think about social constructs hold them back and prevent them from acting upon their violent fantasies.

 

[likesfish]

His nationality is British/Welsh. The Rwandan heritage is added on to explain why he's black. It's common or garden racism.

it may or may not be relevant

Why report that he has Rwandan heritage? To forestall fuckwitted Twitter Islamophobia, as Spymaster spotted earlier. That’s a good cause in which to disclose ethnicity.

oh you think fuck wits are going to Google to find out only 2% of Rwanda are muslims. The police are screwed either way don't mention he's black and it comes out later they were hiding something mention it they are promoting racism