Mad Paul Mason

[The39thStep]

I'm not sure about many of the geocities-website-and-grainy-selfshot-videos-in-front-of-a-stained-portrait-of-Mao groupuscules listed, but describing "Conter" and it's links to "Scottish Nationalism" as somehow part of a pro-Putin sphere of influence is beyond laughable. Conter is three or four folk who write well but who few other than politics geeks in the twittersphere have heard of. There is no evdience whatsoever that they are pro-Putin. Sheer nonsense.

Never heard of them tbh. Quite interesting on the selection of Trot groups , I cant see the SWP or SP on the blacklist but splits from their traditions ie Counterfire and Socialist Appeal are and STW are. Obviously no AWL .

Whats Burgon and Sultana's backgrounds politically?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not sure about many of the geocities-website-and-grainy-selfshot-videos-in-front-of-a-stained-portrait-of-Mao groupuscules listed, but describing "Conter" and it's links to "Scottish Nationalism" as somehow part of a pro-Putin sphere of influence is beyond laughable. Conter is three or four folk who write well but who few other than politics geeks in the twittersphere have heard of. There is no evdience whatsoever that they are pro-Putin. Sheer nonsense.

Aye, Conter are basically Cat Boyd and David Jamieson with occasional input from a couple of other former Swappies. (Glasgow ACG has had dealings with them, and they’ve interviewed a couple of our members for their podcast). They’re Leninists, but I’d be surprised if they were in any meaningful way “pro-Putin”.

 

[danny la rouge]

Strangely he misses out the other Putin sympathisers on the fringes of Scottsh politics- Alex Salmond (host of RT daily show and praise of Putin in the media 7-8 years ago) and ALBA (every weirdo conspriacy loon & gender-neutral toilets monomaniac on the fringes of the Scottish independence debate). Much more obvious & credible than the smear against Conter.

Agreed.

 

[steeplejack]

.

 

[steeplejack]

Never heard of them tbh. Quite interesting on the selection of Trot groups , I cant see the SWP or SP on the blacklist but splits from their traditions ie Counterfire and Socialist Appeal are and STW are. Obviously no AWL .

Whats Burgon and Sultana's backgrounds politically?

Burgon appears to have had his views shaped by stories of the Miners' Strike and participation in the anti-Iraq War protests. Ex solicitor, whole career in Yorkshire Labour, GMB affiliated (chair of GMB parliamentary group), strong Corbyn loyalist. Burgon seems clumsy with words and not hugely bright but still someone whose heart is in the right place.

Sultana has strong Union backing (CWU / FBU & endorsed by Momentum) but also was someone obliged to remove their signatures from the deranged STWC statement criticising NATO's "eastward expansion".

Conter is here: not a bad site. Yes the intellectual background is Leninist but tbh you may as well describe yourself as a Whig or a Corn Law reformer. The term "Leninist" is abidingly irrelevant in 2022.

Conter

Against the Scottish Establishment

www.conter.scot

 

[danny la rouge]

 

[The39thStep]

Burgon appears to have had his views shaped by stories of the Miners' Strike and participation in the anti-Iraq War protests. Ex solicitor, whole career in Yorkshire Labour, GMB affiliated (chair of GMB parliamentary group), strong Corbyn loyalist. Burgon seems clumsy with words and not hugely bright but still someone whose heart is in the right place.

Sultana has strong Union backing (CWU / FBU & endorsed by Momentum) but also was someone obliged to remove their signatures from the deranged STWC statement criticising NATO's "eastward expansion".

Conter is here: not a bad site. Yes the intellectual background is Leninist but tbh you may as well describe yourself as a Whig or a Corn Law reformer. The term "Leninist" is abidingly irrelevant in 2022.

Conter

Against the Scottish Establishment

www.conter.scot

I've come across both Burgon and Sultana before ( you are spot on about Burgon heart in right place but everything else all over the shop type) but I wondered if they had been in or around a Trot group.

 

[krtek a houby]

I mean if I could wear a mask the whole time in public I bloody would.

And how prophetic those words turned out to be

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Relieved to see no mention of Proletarian Democracy.

Surely Red London exist purely to end up on one of these charts and can now retire (if they haven't already?)

 

[teqniq]

It's The Grayzone. Real absolute biffer loons. Standard article for them isn't it, plenty on the left will love it.

Yes, I am seeing this on Twitter unfortunately.

 

[YouSir]

Yes, I am seeing this on Twitter unfortunately.

Paul Mason not denying that stuff like the map is real though, plus it seems entirely on brand for him.

 

[teqniq]

Paul Mason not denying that stuff like the map is real though, plus it seems entirely on brand for him.

Mason is evidently barking but people linking to the Grayzone and similar sites is frankly depressing.

This site I have found a useful resource to link people to by way of a counterweight:

Islamophobia turns left: Ben Norton and the Grayzone Project

Post updated 9 March to include new material from the SPLC, which covers very similar ground to this post, in much more detail. The next d...

brockley.blogspot.com

 

[YouSir]

Mason is evidently barking but people linking to the Grayzone and similar sites is frankly depressing.

This site I have found a useful resource to link people to by way of a counterweight:

Islamophobia turns left: Ben Norton and the Grayzone Project

Post updated 9 March to include new material from the SPLC, which covers very similar ground to this post, in much more detail. The next d...

brockley.blogspot.com

Never heard of Grayzone before tbh and only seen people linking now because of the 'hacked' material. Would say people taking GZ seriously are considerably less of an issue that people taking Paul Mason seriously.

 

[steeplejack]

Lads I'm not "taking it seriously" (see my original posting) and I am well aware of who runs the grayzone and taht they are to be treated wearing an asbestos suit.

It is not irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

 

[steveseagull]

Lads I'm not "taking it seriously" (see my original posting) and I am well aware of who runs the grayzone and taht they are to be treated wearing an asbestos suit.

It is not irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

yes this

 

[Plumdaff]

In one way I'm surprised "The Catholics" and "Liverpool" aren't on his scummy map.

eta. that doesn't mean I need Mason to tell me the likes of Williamson and Galloway are twats. But "the black community" - "Scottish Nationalists". FFS.

 

[Fedayn]

Not a massive fan of Jones but Mason has truly started his Lady Gaga years....

 

[LDC]

Lets under egg the pudding . So you'd sign up for the right to operate a counter-disinformation strategy, and to draw on guidance provided by the state as he is suggesting?

What, is that a serious question to me?! I wouldn't go near Mason or any of the people mentioned on here. Looking at them on the internet and depairing/laughing/raging is the limit of my engagement thanks, have much better things to be doing in real life.

 

[LDC]

Not a massive fan of Jones but Mason has truly started his Lady Gaga years....

Mint Press are dodgy as fuck though. And 'independent' whatever that counts for, like The Canary is independent as well, but both are in the same ballpark of shit politics, bordering on conspiracy theory stuff sometimes. And the Mint Press cartoonist is Latuff who has for years made horrendously racist cartoons.

 

[Fedayn]

Mint Press are dodgy as fuck though. And their cartoonist is Latuff who has for years made dodgy cartoons.

Which has what to do with Masons remarks to Jones and Walker? I am not a fan of Mint Press, it is Mason at issue here.

 

[chilango]

Fucking hell I watched that Jones, Walker, Mason video. Hopefully nobody else will. What an absolute bunch of pricks.

 

[LDC]

Which has what to do with Masons remarks to Jones and Walker? I am not a fan of Mint Press, it is Mason at issue here.

The Tweets you posted were all from a Mint Press person, including an advert for them. If you're not a fan of them either maybe get your info from elsewhere rather than posting Tweets from them then it won't make it look like you think they're OK.

Mason, Jones, and Walker can all fuck off as poisonous political liabilities if you ask me.

 

[emanymton]

Fucking hell I watched that Jones, Walker, Mason video. Hopefully nobody else will. What an absolute bunch of pricks.

You just made me want to watch it.

 

[Rob Ray]

Looking at them on the internet and depairing/laughing/raging is the limit of my engagement thanks, have much better things to be doing in real life.

This, imv, should be the default position of the left. Mason and the tin foil hat brigade do not deserve the amount of attention they get and should not be rewarded with it when spewing effluent (outside of obscure gossip forums, obv ).

 

[chilango]

You just made me want to watch it.

I wouldn't.

They're not exactly political heavyweights. Yet Mason still managed to look like he didn't know what he was on about.

Tldr: ...but Ukraine! ...but Israel! Putin mouthpiece! Saudi headchopper!

 

[Sue]

You just made me want to watch it.

I'm prepared to take chilango's word for it tbh.

 

[hitmouse]

I'm not familiar with the Russian stuff, but the lines from China are 100% accurate. Where it gets iffy is the lines from Fiona Edwards to Stop The War and from Roy Singham to Progressive International. These people are members of these groups but the chart seems to imply that they exercise a great deal of influence over them, which is debatable.

Dunno about Singham/PI but Fiona Edwards is a national officer of StW, so that bit seems fair enough. And it's not like StW's general politics are that much better, Galloway, Nigel, etc.

Never heard of them tbh. Quite interesting on the selection of Trot groups , I cant see the SWP or SP on the blacklist but splits from their traditions ie Counterfire and Socialist Appeal are and STW are. Obviously no AWL .

I can totally see why you'd include Appeal but not the SP (if you were going to spend your time making that map in the first place, which is a big if). The SP's never really gone in for that kind of anti-imperialism, which is why I was a bit surprised that Appeal seem to be so pro-Russia. Can't be arsed wading through the SWP and Counterfire's respective positions on the war to see if there's much substantive difference between them, though.

Whats Burgon and Sultana's backgrounds politically?

I was wondering that, does anyone know if there's any reason for the line from Socialist Action to Burgon or is that just a totally inexplicable flourish?

Burgon appears to have had his views shaped by stories of the Miners' Strike and participation in the anti-Iraq War protests. Ex solicitor, whole career in Yorkshire Labour, GMB affiliated (chair of GMB parliamentary group), strong Corbyn loyalist. Burgon seems clumsy with words and not hugely bright but still someone whose heart is in the right place.

That seems fair enough, and also the most glowing praise I can imagine anyone giving to pretty much any current Labour MP.

It's kind of bothering me how Blumenthal seems entirely unable to locate where the center of that chart is. Surely Andrew Murray and the Morning Star are right at the centre, and Jeremy Corbyn's some way off to the top right? Granted, it's not the most objectionable thing Blumenthal's ever got wrong, but still.

Mint Press are dodgy as fuck though. And 'independent' whatever that counts for, like The Canary is independent as well, but both are in the same ballpark of shit politics, bordering on conspiracy theory stuff sometimes.

Getting into how the Canary, for all its shitness, has still provided some of the best coverage of the Bristol trials of any UK left/media outlet would be a whole other rant.

Fucking hell I watched that Jones, Walker, Mason video. Hopefully nobody else will. What an absolute bunch of pricks.

I think there's a subtle clue in the title that you could've picked up on.

 

[The39thStep]

The real issue here isn't whether Mint Press are as dodgy as fuck or whether Greyzone is or whether the Mason map of left groups is accurate or inaccurate is it? Nor is it do posters like/hate/ really don't know about so and so's view on the Russian invasion. We are all old and wise enough to form a view, reject/oppose a view, work around these things etc. Normally we'd do this in discussion or debate or in some cases avoidance and boycott. Throughout my working life I've had disagreements with other activists and union members on issues like Russia, China, Ireland, reform /revolution, and stacks of things but always, mainly out of necessity tbh, worked with good militants on things we agree on and were worth fighting for.

The issue with Mason is that what we have is a proposal from him about a campaign to out and target what he and obviously some others see as pro-Russian and pro Chinese sources using government guidance around disinformation. It was positioned as a 'peoples' type campaign, trade unionists, the church , NGO/charity- a popular front against 'disinformation' ironically modeled on what used to be bog standard Communist Party tactics. A campaign that squares with his position that the left should support the EU and USA powers against Russia and China. That in itself might raise an eyebrow and also about its limits ie how far and to whom should the 'cleansing of the left' or the 'de-communisation of communists' go? This is very different from the methods mentioned in my first paragraph.

However, if those emails are true, and that is a big if , he has moved up a step and a half. The reality is that those emails suggest he is not just proposing but has already made contact and plans to collaborate with a whole number of people a stone's throw away from intelligence assets and closeness to security services., and not just on a national scale but internationally. As one of the emails advised ' contacts in the government but not controlled by the government', in other words state sponsored.

 

[Rimbaud]

The real issue here isn't whether Mint Press are as dodgy as fuck or whether Greyzone is or whether the Mason map of left groups is accurate or inaccurate is it? Nor is it do posters like/hate/ really don't know about so and so's view on the Russian invasion. We are all old and wise enough to form a view, reject/oppose a view, work around these things etc. Normally we'd do this in discussion or debate or in some cases avoidance and boycott. Throughout my working life I've had disagreements with other activists and union members on issues like Russia, China, Ireland, reform /revolution, and stacks of things but always, mainly out of necessity tbh, worked with good militants on things we agree on and were worth fighting for.

The issue with Mason is that what we have is a proposal from him about a campaign to out and target what he and obviously some others see as pro-Russian and pro Chinese sources using government guidance around disinformation. It was positioned as a 'peoples' type campaign, trade unionists, the church , NGO/charity- a popular front against 'disinformation' ironically modeled on what used to be bog standard Communist Party tactics. A campaign that squares with his position that the left should support the EU and USA powers against Russia and China. That in itself might raise an eyebrow and also about its limits ie how far and to whom should the 'cleansing of the left' or the 'de-communisation of communists' go? This is very different from the methods mentioned in my first paragraph.

However, if those emails are true, and that is a big if , he has moved up a step and a half. The reality is that those emails suggest he is not just proposing but has already made contact and plans to collaborate with a whole number of people a stone's throw away from intelligence assets and closeness to security services., and not just on a national scale but internationally. As one of the emails advised ' contacts in the government but not controlled by the government', in other words state sponsored.

Having a disagreement about Russia or China is one thing; being paid by or otherwise beholden to their intelligence agencies is quite another.

Paul Mason is at least acknowledging that organised disinformation by state actors is a problem, and attempting to think of a solution. From what I can see, he seems to simply be arguing that left wing groups and NGOs simply need to do better due diligence and be a bit less dense about who they work with, which is quite reasonable.

He points out correctly that if they don't do their due diligence themselves, then their own state apparatus will eventually treat them all as assets of hostile foreign intelligence. He isn't wrong - next time the left makes any progress, people like Fiona Edwards will be dragged out to represent the left as a whole. Same as happened with anti-semitism and Corbyn but potentially much worse.

 

[The39thStep]

Having a disagreement about Russia or China is one thing; being paid by or otherwise beholden to their intelligence agencies is quite another.

Paul Mason is at least acknowledging that organised disinformation by state actors is a problem, and attempting to think of a solution. From what I can see, he seems to simply be arguing that left wing groups and NGOs simply need to do better due diligence and be a bit less dense about who they work with, which is quite reasonable.

He points out correctly that if they don't do their due diligence themselves, then their own state apparatus will eventually treat them all as assets of hostile foreign intelligence. He isn't wrong - next time the left makes any progress, people like Fiona Edwards will be dragged out to represent the left as a whole. Same as happened with anti-semitism and Corbyn but potentially much worse.

This reads as unless the left renders itself in a form that is acceptable, through 'self imposed due diligence' (of course) , to the British state it will always be treated as assets of foreign intelligence. Paul is acknowledging that and left wing groups and NGOs need to respond. I am aware you don't have time to contribute to Paul's project but you are on board , right?