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Mad Paul Mason

All this brings to mind the likes of Orwell and Koestler (whom Mason may or may not compare himself to). Understandably, given their experiences of the behaviour of the Communist apparatchiks and activists in places like Spain, they came to regard them as a worse enemy than their own ruling class. Koestler himself saw what the Soviet workers' state actually looked like in practice in its worst phase. Orwell took it to the level of grassing up active Communists to the state (I'm not sure if Koestler did.) Unfortunately, their dreams of a working class movement that was neither under Soviet influence nor tamed by their own ruling class came to nothing.

The situation now is in no way the same, but we can be confident that whatever Mason has in mind is also destined to come to nothing. The reaction to the war in Ukraine does, however, points to how even most contemporary self-styled radicals, with their complete lack of an independent viewpoint, are destined to remain tamed by the state.
 
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This reads as unless the left renders itself in a form that is acceptable, through 'self imposed due diligence' (of course) , to the British state it will always be treated as assets of foreign intelligence. Paul is acknowledging that and left wing groups and NGOs need to respond. I am aware you don't have time to contribute to Paul's project but you are on board , right?

Not to be acceptable to the British state, but to the general population. If you are taking money to help cover up a genocide and parrot the propaganda of a dictatorship then you will be seen by most people, rightly, as a piece of shit. That there is passive acceptance or even complicity in this kind of behaviour on the left will be weaponised against it when the establishment feels threatened - but even so we shouldn't accept it anyway. It is less like becoming palatable by the establishment by refusing to challenge their interests, and more like not accepting sexism within your organisation because not only does it bring you into disrepute, but also because you shouldn't accept it anyway.

It is hard to see what the Vanessa Beesleys or Max Blumenthals of the world running around on the outskirts of the left actually add of any value or relevance to socialist politics. Calling them out earlier, rather than echoing and amplifying their crap, might have even got Corbyn elected - but getting rid of toxic alt-right adjacent anti-semitic conspiracy theories and atrocity denial would hardly have entailed watering down Corbyn's social and economic platform.

Also Paul Mason doesn't seem to be launching a particular programme or project in that article so I'm not sure what it would mean for me to be on board. He is merely saying his opinion. Which is summarised as follows:

1) State actors have learned to manipulate social media to spread disinformation more successfully through algorithmic manipulation
2) National governments are slow to respond to and to understand these disinformation campaigns
3) It is dangerous for national governments to lead the campaign against disinformation as it has the potential to threaten free speech and civil rights more broadly
4) Therefore civil society institutions (trade unions, NGOs, political parties etc) should manage their own counter-disinformation strategies, and the left should champion counter-disinformation as a cause, advocating state support to enable and assist counter-disinformation efforts

What exactly do you think is so ludicrous about this? Or do you merely object to countering disinformation on principle?

I think you may simply not be appreciating the significance of the question. Authoritarian states have already given their answer to disinformation - for example China's firewall, which does not prevent disinformation exactly but does block disinformation (as well as accurate information) which doesn't agree with the central government narrative. Authoritarian states are proactive in trying to establish international norms in counter-disinformation at the UN by promoting methodologies such as that are used in China.

We are now in a situation where such states can filter out and block any news they don't like, but actively pump disinformation and misinformation into countries that do not censor their Internet. Such disinformation almost overturned US democracy on January 6th, and has also caused problems with Covid denial and anti-vaxxers.

Mason is recognising that this is an important issue, and tentatively suggesting that the answer may lie in creating a population who are savvier at recognising disinformation and suggests a decentralised campaign led by civil society institutions with some assistance from the state (whether that is funding, advice or whatever isn't specified) would be a preferable alternative to a centralised state-led strategy which could produce outcomes similar to China and Russia. I'm not sure what you think he was trying to say, but it is actually a pretty good article imo.
 
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Not to be acceptable to the British state, but to the general population. If you are taking money to help cover up a genocide and parrot the propaganda of a dictatorship then you will be seen by most people, rightly, as a piece of shit. That there is passive acceptance or even complicity in this kind of behaviour on the left will be weaponised against it when the establishment feels threatened - but even so we shouldn't accept it anyway. It is less like becoming palatable by the establishment by refusing to challenge their interests, and more like not accepting sexism within your organisation because not only does it bring you into disrepute, but also because you shouldn't accept it anyway.

It is hard to see what the Vanessa Beesleys or Max Blumenthals of the world running around on the outskirts of the left actually add of any value or relevance to socialist politics. Calling them out earlier, rather than echoing and amplifying their crap, might have even got Corbyn elected - but getting rid of toxic alt-right adjacent anti-semitic conspiracy theories and atrocity denial would hardly have entailed watering down Corbyn's social and economic platform.

Also Paul Mason doesn't seem to be launching a particular programme or project in that article so I'm not sure what it would mean for me to be on board. He is merely saying his opinion. Which is summarised as follows:

1) State actors have learned to manipulate social media to spread disinformation more successfully through algorithmic manipulation
2) National governments are slow to respond to and to understand these disinformation campaigns
3) It is dangerous for national governments to lead the campaign against disinformation as it has the potential to threaten free speech and civil rights more broadly
4) Therefore civil society institutions (trade unions, NGOs, political parties etc) should manage their own counter-disinformation strategies, and the left should champion counter-disinformation as a cause, advocating state support to enable and assist counter-disinformation efforts

What exactly do you think is so ludicrous about this? Or do you merely object to countering disinformation on principle?
I doubt that being associated, rightly or wrongly, with somebody like Vanessa Beeley had anything to do with Corbyn not being elected. Nobody outside the far-left bubble has heard of Beeley. In fact, I suspect that many within the far-left bubble haven't heard of her either. Corbyn not being elected was due to the neo-liberal right establishment (and elements of the neo-liberal left establishment), upping their game after realisng how close it came in 2017. Plus the well-documented Labour idiocy about Brexit, which united the neo-liberal left with the ant-Brexit neo-liberal right, and played right into the hands of the latter.

If the left could provide convincing arguments about the economy and society, I doubt if perceived anti-semitism on the left, or what some of its elements think about Putin etc etc, would make much difference. Nobody you ever meet outside the bubbles, left and right, spends their time worrying about whether the Russians or the CIA, or whoever, might be manipulating us. Maybe it's because of an unspoken acceptance that some fuckers somewhere are always manipulating us and always have been.

As if there is, in these days of social media dominance, any way of countering disinformation anyway. It's a losing battle.
 
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Never heard of Grayzone before tbh and only seen people linking now because of the 'hacked' material. Would say people taking GZ seriously are considerably less of an issue that people taking Paul Mason seriously.
I'm not so sure. Grayzone and Max Blumenthal have a much bigger, further reaching following. And truly awful pro-Assad, Kremlin apologism and Uyghur genocide denial going on there.
 
I'm not so sure. Grayzone and Max Blumenthal have a much bigger, further reaching following. And truly awful pro-Assad, Kremlin apologism and Uyghur genocide denial going on there.
They don't have any following among anybody who counts. Ask the 'normals' you know if they've ever heard of these people.
 
They don't have any following among anybody who counts. Ask the 'normals' you know if they've ever heard of these people.

Same applies to Paul Mason really. He's engaged in his Very Serious crusade against all the Stalinist hordes to an audience that, by real interest, would amount to about 10 people. It's only his previous profile and his willingness to align himself with the interests of some vicious bastards in Labour and the media that gives him/it any prominence at all. All for the sake of a job as MP probably.
 
I doubt that being associated, rightly or wrongly, with somebody like Vanessa Beeley had anything to do with Corbyn not being elected. Nobody outside the far-left bubble has heard of Beeley. In fact, I suspect that many within the far-left bubble haven't heard of her either. Corbyn not being elected was due to the neo-liberal right establishment (and elements of the neo-liberal left establishment), upping their game after realisng how close it came in 2017. Plus the well-documented Labour idiocy about Brexit, which united the neo-liberal left with the ant-Brexit neo-liberal right, and played right into the hands of the latter.

If the left could provide convincing arguments about the economy and society, I doubt if perceived anti-semitism on the left, or what some of its elements think about Putin etc etc, would make much difference. Nobody you ever meet outside the bubbles, left and right, spends their time worrying about whether the Russians or the CIA, or whoever, might be manipulating us. Maybe it's because of an unspoken acceptance that some fuckers somewhere are always manipulating us and always have been.

As if there is, in these days of social media dominance, any way of countering disinformation anyway. It's a losing battle.
Not Beeley as a person, but it was that fringe
/network of "anti-imperialist" conspiracism lurking around lefty Twitter which was drawn on to paint Corbynism as anti-semitic.
 
They don't have any following among anybody who counts. Ask the 'normals' you know if they've ever heard of these people.
Doesn't matter - QAnon themed disinformation was largely unknown by "normies" until January 6th. It still has an effect. The Great Reset nonsense and whoever is associated with that is also unknown but that doesn't mean that the anti-vaxx movement was socially irrelevant.

And I think the point of Mason's article is that counter-disinformation is an inevitability as it becomes a more pressing issue, and that the left should try to shape a more democratic form of it to pre-empt a more top-down approach which could be repressive and indiscriminate. He doesn't really offer any specifics of how this would work - because I suppose it isn't really his field of expertise - but it is an important conversation to be having.
 
Also Paul Mason doesn't seem to be launching a particular programme or project in that article so I'm not sure what it would mean for me to be on board. He is merely saying his opinion. Which is summarised as follows:

1) State actors have learned to manipulate social media to spread disinformation more successfully through algorithmic manipulation
2) National governments are slow to respond to and to understand these disinformation campaigns
3) It is dangerous for national governments to lead the campaign against disinformation as it has the potential to threaten free speech and civil rights more broadly
4) Therefore civil society institutions (trade unions, NGOs, political parties etc) should manage their own counter-disinformation strategies, and the left should champion counter-disinformation as a cause, advocating state support to enable and assist counter-disinformation efforts

What exactly do you think is so ludicrous about this? Or do you merely object to countering disinformation on principle?
I think it's 4, or the contradiction between 3 and 4, that's the problem. I would have no objections to, and indeed support, an independent left campaign against counter-disinformation, but it's the part where you get into advocating state support that crosses a line. It seems naive to expect state support without there being some kind of a quid pro quo, and if you accept that the state is likely to make demands in return then you're back to point 3, it's the point where something stops being an independent (working-class?) initiative against state propaganda, and crosses over to become effectively state-affiliated, imo.
 
I think it's 4, or the contradiction between 3 and 4, that's the problem. I would have no objections to, and indeed support, an independent left campaign against counter-disinformation, but it's the part where you get into advocating state support that crosses a line. It seems naive to expect state support without there being some kind of a quid pro quo, and if you accept that the state is likely to make demands in return then you're back to point 3, it's the point where something stops being an independent (working-class?) initiative against state propaganda, and crosses over to become effectively state-affiliated, imo.

Well, I feel like he is simply spit balling. He doesn't really define what state guidance would mean exactly. It could mean simply publishing an information resource and sharing intelligence publicly, or providing funds to supporting training in counter-disinformation.

The real problem with the article is that he doesn't really suggest anything specific and leaves it a little vague, but I think he is merely trying to start a conversation about it.
 
As a general comment about Paul Mason being mad or not - I really don't like how quick people are to jump on any lefty journo who gets in the public eye. Owen Jones gets similar treatment to what Mason is getting here and I can't actually think of a single left wing media figure who hasn't been mercilessly jumped on by urban75 with all their flaws magnified.

Mark Fisher's "Exiting the Vampire Castle" touched on this and made the excellent point - when looking at the abuse Owen Jones gets from lefty Twitter, why would anyone else want to join him in sticking their neck above the parapet?

I'm sure every single person posting on this thread will have some eccentricities. God forbid any of us become media figures and get those magnified 1000x by the people we are supposedly on the same side as. Or as is the case with the article we are discussing, wilfully assuming that the least flattering possible interpretation of a rather vague article is the correct one and ridiculing him for that. Surely we can give people the benefit of a doubt sometimes?
 
So let me see If I understand correctly. Mason is saying that in order to counter the problem of some parts of "the left" being essentially on the payroll of foreign states the rest of the left should align with our own state?
 
As a general comment about Paul Mason being mad or not - I really don't like how quick people are to jump on any lefty journo who gets in the public eye. Owen Jones gets similar treatment to what Mason is getting here and I can't actually think of a single left wing media figure who hasn't been mercilessly jumped on by urban75 with all their flaws magnified.

Mark Fisher's "Exiting the Vampire Castle" touched on this and made the excellent point - when looking at the abuse Owen Jones gets from lefty Twitter, why would anyone else want to join him in sticking their neck above the parapet?

I'm sure every single person posting on this thread will have some eccentricities. God forbid any of us become media figures and get those magnified 1000x by the people we are supposedly on the same side as. Or as is the case with the article we are discussing, wilfully assuming that the least flattering possible interpretation of a rather vague article is the correct one and ridiculing him for that. Surely we can give people the benefit of a doubt sometimes?

How closely so you follow Mason? He's an aspiring Starmer aligned Labour MP, accuses anyone he dislikes of being a Stalinist, excuses arms sales to Saudi Arabia and peddles batshit conspiracies about who's a paid Russia shill. At least he does now that his magical mind map of who dunnit has been leaked (and not refuted), previously he just said it was everyone who disagreed with him. He's also a long way from Owen Jones - most of Mason's critics come from the Left, the Centre seem to like him for doing the Reds Under the Bed bit. Owen Jones has critics on the Left, me included at times, but far more defenders.

e2a: He's also a massive narcissist, real Galloway vibes only without any actual following at all.
 
How closely so you follow Mason? He's an aspiring Starmer aligned Labour MP, accuses anyone he dislikes of being a Stalinist, excuses arms sales to Saudi Arabia and peddles batshit conspiracies about who's a paid Russia shill. At least he does now that his magical mind map of who dunnit has been leaked (and not refuted), previously he just said it was everyone who disagreed with him. He's also a long way from Owen Jones - most of Mason's critics come from the Left, the Centre seem to like him for doing the Reds Under the Bed bit. Owen Jones has critics on the Left, me included at times, but far more defenders.

e2a: He's also a massive narcissist, real Galloway vibes only without any actual following at all.

I don't follow him closely but I read some of his stuff about the financial crisis 10 years ago.

Some of the stuff you say may have some truth in it, but I don't think it is fair at all to compare him to Galloway as far as I can see. Some of his conspiracies about who is a Russia paid shill are probably not batshit. He might get it wrong sometimes and go too far but IMO it is better than pretending that Russia propaganda campaigns don't exist. I'm not an expert about Russian disinformation but I know a lot about Chinese disinformation (I even had a job kind of related to this before) and his "magical mind map", at least pertaining to the Chinese influence, is accurate.

He was wrong about Starmer but I also seem to remember him publishing an article attacking Starmer for betraying the promises he made to get elected. And maybe he accuses critics of being Stalinists because Twitter is full of insane tankie trolls and 9 times out of 10 he is probably right. Don't know anything about the Saudi thing.
 
Nor does Jones really, although he gets disagreed with plenty. Urban aside I don't think the Left really does turn on its media voices, for one thing there's only about 4 of them.

I seem to remember him getting quite a lot of grief on here some years ago, and it was notable enough on Twitter for Mark Fisher to comment on it. It seems to have died down now for whatever reason.
 
I don't follow him closely but I read some of his stuff about the financial crisis 10 years ago.

Some of the stuff you say may have some truth in it, but I don't think it is fair at all to compare him to Galloway as far as I can see. Some of his conspiracies about who is a Russia paid shill are probably not batshit. He might get it wrong sometimes and go too far but IMO it is better than pretending that Russia propaganda campaigns don't exist. I'm not an expert about Russian disinformation but I know a lot about Chinese disinformation (I even had a job kind of related to this before) and his "magical mind map", at least pertaining to the Chinese influence, is accurate.

He was wrong about Starmer but I also seem to remember him publishing an article attacking Starmer for betraying the promises he made to get elected. And maybe he accuses critics of being Stalinists because Twitter is full of insane tankie trolls and 9 times out of 10 he is probably right. Don't know anything about the Saudi thing.

I remember his stuff pre Brexit, he's written interesting bits before but you've missed an awful lot of his devolution. His split with the Left literally followed 'these people who disagree with me are Stalinists' lines. His accusations of Russian collaboration also seem to work in only one direction, he's fixated on small Left Wing sects no one cares about but has nothing to say about Russian money elsewhere in our politics, he basically parrots Labour Right attack lines. Which is why he's been shortlisted as a potential MP imo.

His Saudi stuff was saying that anyone who questioned NATO (not even Ukraine's right to self defence) needed expelling from the party while pushing for arms sales to Saudi was fine no matter how they were used in Yemen because... reasons.

I seem to remember him getting quite a lot of grief on here some years ago, and it was notable enough on Twitter for Mark Fisher to comment on it. It seems to have died down now for whatever reason.

Urban is Urban, I follow Jones' stuff on Twitter, hight doubt he'd rate the Left as his harshest critics. Lots of disagreement to be sure but it's the Right and transphobes coming with the death threats and such. I actually think he gets a decent amount of support from people.
 
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Yeah, I don't see the point in getting annoyed with Jones. He's pretty straightforward about who he is and what he does, as a social democrat who would look quite moderate in former times but these days is considered quite left. The worst you can accuse him of is helping the guardian maintain an undeserved reputation as a left wing paper, but if people haven't worked out it's not left wing by now they probably never will.

Mason is a different kettle of fish. His politics have been all over the place over the years and he's unable to maintain consistency on where he stands. During his more left wing phase when he first left the BBC some leftists came to see him as an ally, so their disappointment at his move to the Labour right is understandable. Plus he says some right mad stuff.
 
I remember his stuff pre Brexit, he's written interesting bits before but you've missed an awful lot of his devolution. His split with the Left literally followed 'these people who disagree with me are Stalinists' lines. His accusations of Russian collaboration also seem to work in only one direction, he's fixated on small Left Wing sects no one cares about but has nothing to say about Russian money elsewhere in our politics, he basically parrots Labour Right attack lines. Which is why he's been shortlisted as a potential MP imo.

His Saudi stuff was saying that anyone who questioned NATO (not even Ukraine's right to self defence) needed expelling from the party while pushing for arms sales to Saudi was fine no matter how they were used in Yemen because... reasons.



Urban is Urban, I follow Jones' stuff on Twitter, hight doubt he'd rate the Left as his harshest critics. Lots of disagreement to be sure but it's the Right and transphobes coming with the death threats and such. I actually think he gets a decent amount of support from people.

Ok, fair enough. That's a bit of a shame.

I think it is a difficult thing to get the right balance of. IMO there are quite serious threats emerging now to democratic rights overall. Some of these stem from states like Russia and particularly China, but the analysis should focus on how systems like China's with no rights for workers have proved quite attractive to neoliberal capitalism (Musk is one of their big cheerleaders for instance, because workers will keep going till 3am which he thinks is great), and also we need a better understanding of how surveillance capitalism may converge / is converging with the digital totalitarianism seen in China and increasingly Russia.

By the sounds of it, Mason has lost his way largely because he has recognised the importance of these trends (which a lot of the left is still in denial about) but as everyone is still flailing in the dark about these new developments and how to understand them he doesn't know where to focus his energy so is kind of fixating and obsessing over the wrong things.
 
I seem to remember him getting quite a lot of grief on here some years ago, and it was notable enough on Twitter for Mark Fisher to comment on it. It seems to have died down now for whatever reason.
There was a photo of a bunch of Urbs getting a group selfie in the pub with at one point iirc.

I think the whole Laurie Penny experience burnt a lot of us.
 
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