London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square
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hiraethified
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
Burglaries are a fact of life if you live in London. To avoid being burgled you have to either lock your doors and windows or move to an area where you can leave your door open all day long.
You can join neighbourhood watch, you can get involved in all sort of local community crime prevention activities, but you can't prevent burglaries in London by leaving your door open all day and just refusing to accept burglaries, It will not work as a crime prevention strategy.
Of course women should not accept harassment as a natural fact. However just having a mental state of not accepting harassment while dressed in lingerie and high heels in public will not work as a harassment prevention strategy.
I personally do not think that women should be harassed and sexually assaulted just because they dress in a sexually provocative manner. However I am painfully aware that no everyone in the world shares my opinion and that there are men out there who will harass women if they are dressed provocatively. Pretending that this is not so is not helpful to anyone.
If it was true that women could walk around in their underwear freely without fear of harassment then the world would be a better place, but it just simply isn't like that.
And before anyone gets all excited I'm well aware that rapists rape women who are wearing all kinds of clothes, not just women who wear skimpy little dresses.
It is a matter of thinking about the best strategy for avoiding trouble. Not dressing provocatively and wearing shoes you can run / kick in makes for a good strategy IMO. if you really, really want to wear provocative clothing then learn to fight so that you can deal with trouble as and when it arises.
Walking around in a tiny dress whilst teetering on high heels is leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to assault. Denying the reality that we live in a dangerous city (well I do) and that there are plenty of rapists, perverts and drunk gropers around is also unhelpful.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
It's not what I'm suggesting at all.
At no point have I ever advocated genital groping of anyone. I stopped taking part in that thread because of lots of hysterical people were making incorrect assumptions about all kinds of things I was supposed to have said / endorsed but had in fact not said / endorsed. It is actually pretty tedious that you keep dredging it up and following me around misquoting me.
I'm putting you on ignore because life's too short
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
The issue isn't about women deliberately dressing in a sexually provocative manner. It isn't about a woman's right to walk down the street in lingerie.
Its about the judgements made in the minds of observers who apply their own rules to the attire of the woman they are observing and then attach moral judgements about what the wearer 'deserves'.
A tight t-shirt.
A plunging neckline.
A bare midriff.
Tight jeans.
Hem above the knees.
High heels.
A uniform.
All of the above can be construed as being 'sexually provocative' by an observer depending on his or her particular set of values.
Of course we all know that danger exists. Harassment and violent assault doesn't even need provocation in the form of behaviour or attire.
The main issue is that if harassment or assault occurs, the default attitude should be that the attire of the victim is not an issue. She is not to blame. She did not force the perpetrator to assault or harass her. She may have been naive, foolish or indeed very stupid in her choice of attire but the default reaction to naivety, foolishness or stupidity should not be harassment and/or violence and the default attitude from observers should not be "she deserved it".
Its about the judgements made in the minds of observers who apply their own rules to the attire of the woman they are observing and then attach moral judgements about what the wearer 'deserves'.
A tight t-shirt.
A plunging neckline.
A bare midriff.
Tight jeans.
Hem above the knees.
High heels.
A uniform.
All of the above can be construed as being 'sexually provocative' by an observer depending on his or her particular set of values.
Of course we all know that danger exists. Harassment and violent assault doesn't even need provocation in the form of behaviour or attire.
The main issue is that if harassment or assault occurs, the default attitude should be that the attire of the victim is not an issue. She is not to blame. She did not force the perpetrator to assault or harass her. She may have been naive, foolish or indeed very stupid in her choice of attire but the default reaction to naivety, foolishness or stupidity should not be harassment and/or violence and the default attitude from observers should not be "she deserved it".
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
agreed
I have been harassed while wearing tight, clingy clothing, even though I am very much covered up in it. Different things mean "provocative" to different people, granted.
Just for example here is a photo that looks a little bit like the way that my neighbour often dresses. She would only wear black red and purple and never platforms, but the level of provocativeness is fairly similar.
Now clearly this young woman does not deserve to be raped or harassed because of what she chooses to wear, but it is inevitable that sooner or later, going about dressed like this, she is going to get harassed and possibly molested.
This is where it gets complex because of course while only a rampant misogynist would claim that she was "asking for it" if she did get harassed, one would expect any good friends of this girl who cared about her to invite her to consider her safety before going out alone dressed in such a way.
By all means go on as many protests as you like and denounce rapists and gropers but I think that it should be possible to invite women to consider their personal safety when deciding what to wear without being accused of blaming the victim.
If I had my way all young women would be trained in martial arts from a young age and would be able to give a good account of themselves should any passing pervert decide to assault or harass them.
Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen any time soon, so for now women and girls and actually men and boys too, need to think and take care of themselves. Taking responsible actions to prevent harassment and sexual assault is not victim blaming it is empowering.
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
If I had my way there would be much, much more education of both sexes in respect of the laws regarding harassment and violence.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Do you think education about the law would make a difference... Lots of things are illegal, but people still do them. It's about attitudes which must change, which sadly is harder.
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
It would be a start. Describing the boundaries between 'flirting', 'having a laugh', 'harassment' and 'assault' for instance. Discussions about attitudes can be spun off during and after.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I grew up somewhere we left the back door unlocked and the keys in the car, for convenience. Anyone who needed the car or was welcome in the house, knew it.
It's how I'd like to be able to conduct my sex life, and mostly do. Any reason I can't ask that everyone can do so safely?
It's how I'd like to be able to conduct my sex life, and mostly do. Any reason I can't ask that everyone can do so safely?
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
agreed
I have been harassed while wearing tight, clingy clothing, even though I am very much covered up in it. Different things mean "provocative" to different people, granted.
Just for example here is a photo that looks a little bit like the way that my neighbour often dresses. She would only wear black red and purple and never platforms, but the level of provocativeness is fairly similar.
Now clearly this young woman does not deserve to be raped or harassed because of what she chooses to wear, but it is inevitable that sooner or later, going about dressed like this, she is going to get harassed and possibly molested.
This is where it gets complex because of course while only a rampant misogynist would claim that she was "asking for it" if she did get harassed, one would expect any good friends of this girl who cared about her to invite her to consider her safety before going out alone dressed in such a way.
By all means go on as many protests as you like and denounce rapists and gropers but I think that it should be possible to invite women to consider their personal safety when deciding what to wear without being accused of blaming the victim.
If I had my way all young women would be trained in martial arts from a young age and would be able to give a good account of themselves should any passing pervert decide to assault or harass them.
Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen any time soon, so for now women and girls and actually men and boys too, need to think and take care of themselves. Taking responsible actions to prevent harassment and sexual assault is not victim blaming it is empowering.
why is it 'inevitable'? that word accepts that some men can't control themselves. which is pretty insulting to all of us - not just men.
it's the same kind of thinking that says if you let a blokes sleep in your bed at the end of a date, it's 'inevitable' that one of them will rape you. It bloody isn't, you know.
girls who dress provokatively so it to feel sexually powerful and attractive. they do it so people will look at them and admire them. that's all. no one then has any right to cross that boundary and touch them. a woman wearing those clothes may invite someone to dance close, or kiss them, or do whatever... but no one has any right to take it further than is being invited.
this is basic stuff. and it starts with saying - "no matter how i dress everyone who sees me has a responsibility not to do anything to me that i don't want". and then it continues, critically, by recognising that rapists aren't some homogenous mass force of nature... but individual people making choices. and further, that rates of rape and sexual assault vary around the world. and the reason they vary is because of the cultural attitudes to women and rape. Not because of what people wear. If you want to make fewer rapes happen, you do it by changing men's attitudes. Not by changing what women are wearing.
editor
hiraethified
Not by me, it's not.
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Well said, Spangles!
I realise I've pissed off loads of people splurging my sex life all over the boards, but I've also had some support from surprising quarters. I have personal reasons for writing publicly about it, but spamming it here is not pure exhibitionism. A lot of people struggle with the issues I'm trying to explore. People with very different sex lives to me, an' all.
Fed up with sex being such a fucking battleground.
I realise I've pissed off loads of people splurging my sex life all over the boards, but I've also had some support from surprising quarters. I have personal reasons for writing publicly about it, but spamming it here is not pure exhibitionism. A lot of people struggle with the issues I'm trying to explore. People with very different sex lives to me, an' all.
Fed up with sex being such a fucking battleground.
petee
no gods, no malarkey
men have feelings too, y'know, and it's not clear to me why anyone should claim a right to create a situation where "they" "must" "control themselves". what is the corollary for women?
so it's a power assertion and control attempt. is this open to guys too? can men also attempt to assert their power and control in a way of their choosing?
the goal of course should be a situation where no-one, of either sex and in any way, is in a position to assert power and/or control. a long way off perhaps, and maybe not 100% obtainable as people are neither robots nor (in general) hermits, and what that canadian cop said was pretty superficial, but it's getting a pretty superficial response.
so it's a power assertion and control attempt. is this open to guys too? can men also attempt to assert their power and control in a way of their choosing?
the goal of course should be a situation where no-one, of either sex and in any way, is in a position to assert power and/or control. a long way off perhaps, and maybe not 100% obtainable as people are neither robots nor (in general) hermits, and what that canadian cop said was pretty superficial, but it's getting a pretty superficial response.
AverageJoe
...
Sadly, some men just cant. Some men cant stop drinking beer, Some men cant stop ogling women and making comments, Some men cant stop fucking kids. Some men cant stop fighting. Some men cant stop stealing. Some men are just horrible *horrible* cunts.
The fact that other people have to adjust their lifestyle to compensate for these people is the saddest thing. I totally understand what LouLouBelle is saying. As a bloke myself, and a father of a 3 year old girl, I would like to think that I am a well adjusted, sensible, mature(ish) man. But if someone walked down the road dressed in their underwear (or actually, to be completely shallow, if they walked down the road with a fantastic pair of tits, nice arse, slim waist, pretty face etc) then I will have a sneaky look. Its what men do. Any man who denies it is a liar. It doesnt make me a potential rapist, it just means that I can spot a pretty woman, a sexy walk or a great pair of tits. its hard wired into me, and to apologise for it is just a worthless excercise.
The difference is though, is that real men can appreciate the beauty of the person (and after all thats what fashion etc is about - making yourself look good for yourself and for others), and the cunts just look at the person as a partially wrapped portion of meat that can be used as they wish.
People, all people. have a scum element to them. Even all of us. The difference is that most of the time we can control it. It annoys me that people cant wear what they like without being judged (which is the wider issue - look at how Bizarre magazine does their 'Dare To Be Different' campaign), but sadly its a characteristic that has been with us for 2000 year of culture. It will only change via peoples attitudes to other people changing, and not necessarily men; women tend to be much more vitriolic about how other women dress.
miss minnie
Well-Known Member
As long as mens' choosing doesn't hurt anyone else, of course they can primp, preen, strut and flirt as much as they like. As long as everyone respects boundaries all should be safe and well.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
eh?
it's perfectly possible to ignore a woman dressed provocatively. it doesn't effect control in anyone other than those who willingly buy into it. and men do it too. different men do it in different ways (just like women) - perhaps the male version of dressing skimpily is to flash the cash, brag about the car, offer to buy drinks etc. and it would be ridiculous to maintain that in doing so women are being controlled - because they can choose not to have a drink bought for them... not to play the game. but it's these men trying to feel sexually powerful and attractive, just the same.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Women ogle men, and sexually harrass them too. It's not an either or.
It's just that the average physical power difference means that women are more easily and more often overpowered, the asymmetry of sex allows a woman to be raped when not physically ready for it, and patriarchy encourages men to think of us as property.
And men like petee seem to think sexual violence is a reasonable response to provocative dress. Which is pretty fucked up. I see a peachy arse or incredible torso every other day, and manage to keep my hands, and cunt, to myself. Go figure.
It's just that the average physical power difference means that women are more easily and more often overpowered, the asymmetry of sex allows a woman to be raped when not physically ready for it, and patriarchy encourages men to think of us as property.
And men like petee seem to think sexual violence is a reasonable response to provocative dress. Which is pretty fucked up. I see a peachy arse or incredible torso every other day, and manage to keep my hands, and cunt, to myself. Go figure.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
why do you think the prevalence of rape changes in different parts of the world? are south african men, for example, biologically less capable of controlling themselves?
AverageJoe
...
I dont know spangles. I'm not an expert. Was just giving my opinion 
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
There is a massive difference between noticing someone is attractive ad going damn he/she is hot and thinking that gives you the right to grope them without permission. It is just as distasteful when women do it to men because it shows lack of respect for that person and their physical boundaries.
petee
no gods, no malarkey
the attempt to create desire as a means of power expression/behavior control is a form of hurt. and, it's not up to you to dictate to men the terrain on which they choose their expression, any more than it's up to men to dictate to women etc. "of course they can ..." is pure sexism.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I dont know spangles. I'm not an expert. Was just giving my opinion
i assume you don't *know* nor do i... but why do you *think*?
because it seems fairly obvious, that if men in different cultures are more or less likely to rape, then if we can change the culture that surrounds men, we can reduce the numbers of rapes. there may well be psychopaths frothing at the mouth grunting 'rape-stab-mummy' and lurching dickwards at the nearest miniskirt with no control over their actions - but most people allowed out on the streets are capable of making choices about things.
by far the majority of convicted rapists are not criminally insane. which means they could have controlled themselves but they chose not to. if a person can make choices, then surely society can have an effect on them? that would seem to be borne out by the south africa thing.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
We all need to be educated, not just men. I find it sad that some women accept men groping them on nights out, even giggle like it was a compliment.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
true - although if you want a specific man (or even a group of men) to grope you, there's fuck all wrong with that. but if a bloke comes up behind you and out of the blue stick his hand up your skirt, and you just giggle and call him cheeky... it sends a very damaging message to men. you can't approve behaviour on behalf of other women.
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