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London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square

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editor said:
Yesterday was one action packed day in London!

slutwalk-london-june-2011-01.jpg
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Not quite what I would have expected. The women in that picture are not dressed as 'sluts' as far as I can see.
 
Global Stoner said:
What those who bang on about it wished they're missus wore*

* but only when they could see them
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Some people wish their GF's/wife/partner wore certain clothing and if they did they would enjoy it but at the same time call them sluts if by some strange and outrageously emasculating twist of fate and irony another man saw them? ;)

How very bizarre!
 
consumer135 said:
if the Guardian is to be believed this is all to do with comments made by a police officer in a lecture to law school students on the subject of personal safety. "Women," he told them, "should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised."

Notice that this is not a legal principle. Aside from the stupid choice of the word 'slut' this seems like sound advice. This is not the same as the judge which Attila the Stockbroker satirized with his poem Rather the protesters are trying to create a world where it is not seen as reasonable to give advice like walking through pecknam flashing an ipad it is probably a good way to get mugged. Sure you should be able to do it and it is not your fault in that ultimate moral responsibility lies with the perpetrator ... but if it can be reasonably be predicted that flashing a high value item increases your chances of being mugged then it can also be reasonably predicted that dressing sexily increases your chances of sexual assault. And saying so isn't a crime or an act of patriarchy.

Ok I get that there may be a broader principle at stake ... so it's about rejecting an attempt at control but its an inconsistant self interested objection. I can't help contrasting it with the reaction Terry Jones Qur'an burning. - does anyone remember anyone saying "Lets have a huge protest to support this guy because religious offence is never an excuse for murder"? Rather it seems like people tried to make him culpable in some way for the deaths of UN staff at the hands of religious nutters. Similarly I see that people in general including some feminist friends I have who I'm sure will be on the march who would not activity defend the right of people they are opposed to to do and say what they want without fear of any unlawful consequences. Rather they would protest about some silly police officer who phrased his well meaning advice badly.
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what a lot of bollocks. victims are "asking" for it and should know better should they, whether its an ipod or a rape? "well meaning" my fucking arse, more like well-loaded.
gavman said:
what is behind the sexual manipulation? my theory
she was a premature baby, not expected to survive. throughout childhood she had bad asthma, still does...but smokes 20 fags / day
her parents used to sleep in shifts in case she had an attack. i believe that she only felt important when she was at the centre of some massive trauma or cause for concern- in fact i think that was the only way she knew how to live
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wtf that has to do with the drivel you posted previously is beyond me. i've been in some quite abusive relationships - thankfully, i think i have managed to move on and retain an objective view of the world i hope, something i would heartily recommend. your honour, i give you:

"i believe that women should be able to dress how they like. but sometimes they dress to provoke a reaction and that reaction cannot be guaranteed to be one that they like.
personally i would never go out with another girl who dresses or acts like a slut- too much grief from other men." :facepalm:
 
Rutita1 said:
Can see Ymu's point entirely. However I do think there is a precarious link being made about women in public, dressing as they please and casual sex. Which kinda goes against the point of the march IMO.

Those talking about casual sex seem to be speaking from the perspective that a women has the right and reason to engage in casual sex without being called x, y, or z..which is true of course.
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I'm reacting to people tutting about the name and thinking they can pass judgement on what anyone chooses to do in private with consenting adults.

And no, it doesn't go against the point. I was 22 when it became illegal for a man to rape his wife, and past sexual history is considered relevant in court if a woman reports being raped. We're not so very far from assuming that yes once means yes always and I'm sick to the back teeth of moralists who endanger women with their fucked up attitudes.
 
ymu said:
I'm reacting to people tutting about the name and thinking they can pass judgement on what anyone chooses to do in private with consenting adults.

And no, it doesn't go against the point. I was 22 when it became illegal for a man to rape his wife, and past sexual history is considered relevant in court if a woman reports being raped. We're not so very far from assuming that yes once means yes always and I'm sick to the back teeth of moralists who endanger women with their fucked up attitudes.
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I don't disagree with you ymu...I can see where Minnies question came from though too. :)
 
miss minnie said:
Oh sorry, yeah, its not a moral judgement it just *bores you*.
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So being bored is a moral judgement?

:confused:

I don't have to listen to / read about other people's sex lives if I don't want to and I find it tedious to do so. There's other things I would rather do.

Do you inhabit some weird universe where people are obliged to get excited about other people's sex lives, and if they don't they are being judgemental?
 
Louloubelle said:
So being bored is a moral judgement?

:confused:

I don't have to listen to / read about other people's sex lives if I don't want to and I find it tedious to do so. There's other things I would rather do.

Do you inhabit some weird universe where people are obliged to get excited about other people's sex lives, and if they don't they are being judgemental?
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Why is your opinion about anyone's sex life even on this thread? It has nothing to do with anything. If the sex lives of others bores you so much why go to the trouble of posting about it? :confused:
 
miss minnie said:
Why is your opinion about anyone's sex life even on this thread? It has nothing to do with anything. If the sex lives of others bores you so much why go to the trouble of posting about it? :confused:
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Because I'm entitled to my opinion and posting opinions is what people do on the internet.

As I said before I wouldn't dream of telling people what they should or shouldn't do, but FFS spare me the details of going on and on about it.

I find people going on and on about what drugs they took incredibly tedious too.

People attempting to police threads is another thing I find incredibly boring.

See - wonders of the internet - posting opinions is allowed.
 
For anyone who can't figure it out...

2 subjects:

a) Women dressing any way they want
b) Casual sex

Thread is about a)

a) is not related to b)

Bringing up b) in discussion about a) does tend to imply some intended relation between the two, even if not intentional, this in turn can suggest some moral judgement.
 
miss minnie said:
For anyone who can't figure it out...

2 subjects:

a) Women dressing any way they want
b) Casual sex

Thread is about a)

a) is not related to b)

Bringing up b) in discussion about a) does tend to imply some intended relation between the two, even if not intentional, this in turn can suggest some moral judgement.
Click to expand...
it's like pulling teeth sometimes eh?
 
miss minnie said:
For anyone who can't figure it out...

2 subjects:

a) Women dressing any way they want
b) Casual sex

Thread is about a)

a) is not related to b)

Bringing up b) in discussion about a) does tend to imply some intended relation between the two, even if not intentional, this in turn can suggest some moral judgement.
Click to expand...


Of course women can dress any way they want.

However if anyone here is suggesting that walking down the street in your underwear will not result in unwanted attention they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I have a right to leave my front door open all day long if I want and it doesn't mean that people are entitled to come inside and help themselves to my stuff. However, the world being what it is, and people being what they are, if I do leave my front door open all day long and go out all day I should not be too surprised if I return to a home stripped of valuables.

A young woman who is a neighbour of mine enjoys strolling around in a basque, stockings and suspenders and high heels.

I got talking to her in Tescos after, dressed in the above manner, she went shopping and attracted unwanted attention. I walked half way back to her home just to make sure she didn't get raped or attacked.

Since then I have gotten to know her a little bit and we often chat if we see each other in the street. She is a very sweet and innocent young woman who has no idea of the reaction she causes in others. She likes alternative music and rubber / plastic clothing and while I agree that she is entitled to wear what she wants I worry about her safety as she occasionally strolls around on her own in high heels and lingerie. She has no martial arts skills and even if she did these would be compromised by wearing 6" stilettos that she can hardly walk in let alone fight in.

I am not suggesting that women who wear very little clothing in public are asking to be raped, obviously, but I think there is a collective denial here about the fact that some young women do make themselves vulnerable to harassment simply by how they dress.

FWIW I identify with this young woman to some extent as when I was a teenager I wore incredibly sexy clothes (although I didn't realise it at the time - I just wanted to look attractive) and I experienced continual harassment from men.

The fact is that young women who were sexually abused as children, as I was, do sometimes dress in an overtly sexual way and do not really comprehend that they are doing this. Young women whose mothers did not honour their feminine gender identity also IME have a tendency to dress in an overtly sexualised way, simply because they struggle with not knowing how to express themselves and their femininity.

Of course none of this means that these young women are "asking for it". On the contrary sexual harassment is the last thing they need. Obviously.

I just don't really think that marching for the right to dress in underwear in public is the most constructive use of my time. I also don't really buy the idea of "reclaiming" the word slut.

I don't begrudge others having fun by going on marches like this one if they want to, I just sense that there is a manic subtext to the discourse of "slutwalk" in which important issues relating sexual abuse and gender identity are denied.

I have to honestly say that I do not understand why miss minnie is so excited about wanting to separate the issues of slutwalk and sexual behaviour.

If they have to be kept separate in threads (a bizarre concept IMO) then why does ymu keep spamming her blog here? I only read the short except that she posted here but it seems to be all about her own sex life and sexual behaviour.

Is it that people can talk about women's clothing and slutwalk (which by its very name has associations of sexual behaviour, whether it's reclaiming the word or whatever) providing that they are promoting a blog about their sex life but not if they want to comment on the blog or on sex generally?

:confused:
 
Louloubelle said:
I am not suggesting that women who wear very little clothing in public are asking to be raped, obviously, but I think there is a collective denial here about the fact that some young women do make themselves vulnerable to harassment simply by how they dress.
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that's exactly what you're suggesting


I don't begrudge others having fun by going on marches like this one if they want to, I just sense that there is a manic subtext to the discourse of "slutwalk" in which important issues relating sexual abuse and gender identity are denied.
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im not sure someone who advocates genital groping to stop evil transsexuals going into lesbian clubs and raping women is particularly well qualified to talk about issues relating to sexual abuse and gender identity
 
I went along to check out all the hawt sluts on Saturday and was pretty impressed by the main organiser, who is 17 it must be said. her speech focused on the role blame and guilt play in sexual politics and personally I feel that our broader culture is interwoven and restricted by it. Then there was a sex workers group calling for legalisation and I could only hear one feminist tutting, all said it felt like young people doing what they do best in putting fresh energy into the slightly hackneyed feminism of older generations.
 
Louloubelle said:
Of course women can dress any way they want.

However if anyone here is suggesting that walking down the street in your underwear will not result in unwanted attention they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I have a right to leave my front door open all day long if I want and it doesn't mean that people are entitled to come inside and help themselves to my stuff. However, the world being what it is, and people being what they are, if I do leave my front door open all day long and go out all day I should not be too surprised if I return to a home stripped of valuables.
Click to expand...

I've recently had a fortnight's holiday in a part of the UK where leaving the front - and back/side - door open all the time is the norm. Even when you're not there. People living there made a point of it, in fact. Took a day or two for it to sink in/get used to it, of course, but it did bring home to me quite sharply how much we have lost/how things could be.

Were a community where it is not currently possible to live in this way to suddenly ask "Well why not?" and to begin organising to change things, would you dismiss their efforts as hopelessly naive and doomed to failure?

Why should communities accept burglary as a fact of life?

Why should women accept sexual harassment as a natural fact?
 
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