London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square

[AverageJoe]

i assume you don't *know* nor do i... but why do you *think*?

because it seems fairly obvious, that if men in different cultures are more or less likely to rape, then if we can change the culture that surrounds men, we can reduce the numbers of rapes. there may well be psychopaths frothing at the mouth grunting 'rape-stab-mummy' and lurching dickwards at the nearest miniskirt with no control over their actions - but most people allowed out on the streets are capable of making choices about things.

by far the majority of convicted rapists are not criminally insane. which means they could have controlled themselves but they chose not to. if a person can make choices, then surely society can have an effect on them? that would seem to be borne out by the south africa thing.

I wouldnt like to suggest that anyone of a paticular ethnic group or culture was more inclined to rape, or even verbally abuse, someone of the opposite sex. In the same way that there are minorities in all aspects of life (football, sports, politics, bar culture etc) there are those that everyone pays attention to because of their inability to control themselves - even though everyone else seems to be able to manage too. The upshot of what we are talking about on this thread is much more psychologically (and possibly physically) damaging.

I'll say it again. There are some proper cunts in this world who spoil everything for everyone. But there are many more nice people. I prefer to concentrate on them (whilst keeping a watchful eye out )

 

[Clair De Lune]

true - although if you want a specific man (or even a group of men) to grope you, there's fuck all wrong with that. but if a bloke comes up behind you and out of the blue stick his hand up your skirt, and you just giggle and call him cheeky... it sends a very damaging message to men. you can't approve behaviour on behalf of other women.

Yeah I didn't explain myself very well. What I mean is that when one woman accepts it it can make the man think it is ok. Personally I would slap them and verbally reprimand them and have done plenty of times. I probably sound really judgmental but I think the women who act like it's ok do the rest of us no favours.

 

[spanglechick]

I wouldnt like to suggest that anyone of a paticular ethnic group or culture was more inclined to rape, or even verbally abuse, someone of the opposite sex. In the same way that there are minorities in all aspects of life (football, sports, politics, bar culture etc) there are those that everyone pays attention to because of their inability to control themselves - even though everyone else seems to be able to manage too. The upshot of what we are talking about on this thread is much more psychologically (and possibly physically) damaging.

I'll say it again. There are some proper cunts in this world who spoil everything for everyone. But there are many more nice people. I prefer to concentrate on them (whilst keeping a watchful eye out )

but the cunts are cunts because (in the overwhelming majority of cases) they choose to be. most rapists are sane and in control of themselves. they just choose to put their own wants over the rights of another person.

 

[AverageJoe]

by far the majority of convicted rapists are not criminally insane. which means they could have controlled themselves but they chose not to. if a person can make choices, then surely society can have an effect on them? that would seem to be borne out by the south africa thing.

Just to pick up on this part, I totally agree. However, how many times have you normally been able to control yourself, but on that one occassion been unale to? I'm not just talking about abuse blah blah, but anything - buying something in a shop when you went in previously and didnt buy buy it? Having that extra drink? That last piece of cake?

We are all guilty of the capability of having control, and we are all capable of losing that control, even momentarily. What disturbs me is that so many people look all presentable on the outside, but then let themselves down once because of weakness. And then we find out what they go up to behind closed doors. People are by nature, just fucking wierd. So many foibles and weaknesses and fantasies and ideals and dreams. All of us different. Nearly all of us manage to contain it when we are out in public, but when we are at home and can be ourselves, then its a different matter. And its when the "real" person - the person who is the person they are at home, seeps into the public persona of themselves, thats when the problem arises.

I know what I am trying to say, but I dont think i have explained it properly. its like - none of us live our public lives in the same way that we live our private lives. And if you get them mixed up, then there's a problem. And quite often a court case too

 

[AverageJoe]

but the cunts are cunts because (in the overwhelming majority of cases) they choose to be. most rapists are sane and in control of themselves. they just choose to put their own wants over the rights of another person.

Sorry spangles, I'm aware that suddenly its a conversation between you and me!

I dont think these people have the capability to even realise that they have the choice. Its just a pavlovian reaction, developed via their parents and peers. I find it hard to think that there are people who would deliberately be a cunt, just cos they could. That would mean they have a massive moral void. Although....jeez, this is an impossible subject to talk about online. We need a montly Urban debating society or something!

 

[pk]

Kind of split on this issue. Women should be wearing what the fuck they like, but they will be judged on their choices. That's life. They'll be judged more harshly by the females than the males too.

Dressing like this is asking for trouble:

Main reason is - the girl looks like a porn star, and it's the permissive style of dressing that makes the connection in many mens (and womens) minds that the wearer is blatantly inviting sexual attention. Whether this is to do with porn itself, in that women dressing this way usually precludes hardcore sexual acts in the minds of porn users, or whether it's the exposing of upper thigh that makes it a suggestive thing I don't know.

But unless the girl had extensive martial arts training I would worry for her safety if she were out alone dressed like this.

And changing attitudes is all but impossible on the whole, made harder because of even more sexist attitudes being imported in the last couple of decades from ethnic communities.

I applaud the reasoning behind the Slutwalks, though I don't like the idea that very young women identify with the word "slut" as something to be celebrated, and I do like the notion that police officers are being ridiculed for saying stupid shit whilst in uniform (that other slutty dress-up kit!) but we as a society should be very careful about what we choose to uphold in the name of freedom. IMO.

 

[ymu]

In the more conservative parts of Palestine, the closest cultural equivalent to a youth hostel is a brothel. Middle-Eastern men tend to assume Western women are available because they have no other framework for understanding promiscuity.

It's about communication and mutual respect, innit.

 

[pk]

Middle-Eastern men tend to assume Western women are available because they have no other framework for understanding promiscuity.

They see Madonna and Rihanna on the TV and assume all Western women are like this - and such attitudes are reinforced by the imams.

 

[spanglechick]

Just to pick up on this part, I totally agree. However, how many times have you normally been able to control yourself, but on that one occassion been unale to? I'm not just talking about abuse blah blah, but anything - buying something in a shop when you went in previously and didnt buy buy it? Having that extra drink? That last piece of cake?

We are all guilty of the capability of having control, and we are all capable of losing that control, even momentarily. What disturbs me is that so many people look all presentable on the outside, but then let themselves down once because of weakness. And then we find out what they go up to behind closed doors. People are by nature, just fucking wierd. So many foibles and weaknesses and fantasies and ideals and dreams. All of us different. Nearly all of us manage to contain it when we are out in public, but when we are at home and can be ourselves, then its a different matter. And its when the "real" person - the person who is the person they are at home, seeps into the public persona of themselves, thats when the problem arises.

I know what I am trying to say, but I dont think i have explained it properly. its like - none of us live our public lives in the same way that we live our private lives. And if you get them mixed up, then there's a problem. And quite often a court case too

there is a massive difference between having another biscuit or three, and raping someone... and that's why it's ok to condemn one and not the other. we find it hard to contol our mostly harmless impulses, but people are much better at controlling their worst ones.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The idea that raping someone is the result of some sort of loss of self-control is an extremely worrying one in terms of what it assumes - that basically, rape is great and you'd do it if there were no consequences (you know, like eating biscuits) but normally you tell yourself it's a bad idea and don't. But you know, sometimes, you might forget yourself and have a little rape. We're all human eh.

 

[ymu]

They see Madonna and Rihanna on the TV and assume all Western women are like this - and such attitudes are reinforced by the imams.

It's not OK to grope Maddonna or Rhianna either.

 

[Clair De Lune]

The idea that raping someone is the result of some sort of loss of self-control is an extremely worrying one in terms of what it assumes - that basically, rape is great and you'd do it if there were no consequences (you know, like eating biscuits) but normally you tell yourself it's a bad idea and don't. But you know, sometimes, you might forget yourself and have a little rape. We're all human eh.

Sorry but

 

[pk]

It's not OK to grope Maddonna or Rhianna either.

I wouldn't want to grope Madonna in a million years.

 

[ymu]

The idea that raping someone is the result of some sort of loss of self-control is an extremely worrying one in terms of what it assumes - that basically, rape is great and you'd do it if there were no consequences (you know, like eating biscuits) but normally you tell yourself it's a bad idea and don't. But you know, sometimes, you might forget yourself and have a little rape. We're all human eh.

That's the thing though. I raped a man once for precisely those reasons. That and not having proper thought about what rape was. (Coitus interruptus, me on top, simultaneous orgasm, I was weak.)

It's one reason why I hate discussions getting derailed by excuses to blame the victim. It's the potential rapists who need to know what's what, and that actually means all of us,

 

[spanglechick]

The idea that raping someone is the result of some sort of loss of self-control is an extremely worrying one in terms of what it assumes - that basically, rape is great and you'd do it if there were no consequences (you know, like eating biscuits) but normally you tell yourself it's a bad idea and don't. But you know, sometimes, you might forget yourself and have a little rape. We're all human eh.

really good point. i get so blinkered addressing specific points and analogies, and i forget to ask myself if the whole direction of the thing holds water.

 

[ymu]

I wouldn't want to grope Madonna in a million years.

Oh, well. That's OK then. As long as we all know she's not good enough for you.

No groping Rhianna just because you consider her worthy of you, now.

 

[Balbi]

The idea that raping someone is the result of some sort of loss of self-control is an extremely worrying one in terms of what it assumes - that basically, rape is great and you'd do it if there were no consequences (you know, like eating biscuits) but normally you tell yourself it's a bad idea and don't. But you know, sometimes, you might forget yourself and have a little rape. We're all human eh.

Fridge you bad, bad man

 

[AverageJoe]

there is a massive difference between having another biscuit or three, and raping someone... and that's why it's ok to condemn one and not the other. we find it hard to contol our mostly harmless impulses, but people are much better at controlling their worst ones.

There is for you, and for me, and for most people. but not for everyone. Look at that 20 year old who last week was arrested for 47 counts of paedophlic related charges. And he worked in a nursery.

FWIW - I think that we are 2 or 3 generations away from finding an equilibrium. Its a little bit like racial equality/awareness. Anything like this is essentially educated through the family. Say, 5 generations ago, mixed race relationships started, and were met with a massive amount of hostility. Over time, families within these relationships started to realise that it wasnt a big deal, and so educated their own families in the same way. Now, 4 generations down the line we have mixed primary schools where the kids dont really notice the colour of their friends. We are still another couple of generations away from full acceptance (until the grandparents or older members of families pass on and take their prejudices with them).

The difference is that these days racial integration is on the whole (and I know that small towns and suburbs etc are the exception) encouraged, and this will expedite the integration.

With what we are talking about, the values are only 3 generations old, maybe less. My nan was brought up to believe that she was the homemaker and that my grandad was the breadwinner. She would do the cleaning and cooking etc. He would bring in the money. She taught my mum her values. My mums values were diluted by my fathers values when they met and married. They bought me up under their values. My values consequently were diluted by mixing with my wifes values, and more importantly, a cultural shift in society as to womens roles. I will bring my kids up with my values, and they will be diluted by whoever they marry. I cant stop that, but I can obviously bring my kids up to treat everyone with respect. Except for ginger people of course.

If my values were to be a man about town in public, but then shout at my wife in front of my little boy at home, to watch him grow up and describe woman as tarts and sluts, to congratulate him for banging a brass, to demean women as thick, to point of fat birds in front of him etc (and lets face it - it does happen) then that boy will grow up thinking the same.

As such, we are at least three generations away from proper equality due to historic values and education from within the family unit. But people like you and I can help to change this, just by being proper, normal decent people. Sadly people like this are in the minority, especially at the moment with all the economic pressures etc on our shoulders - being a good person and citizen goes out the window when the priority is to pay the bills; we'll do what we have to do to make suer we get by, and *then* we'll start being good people again.

 

[miss minnie]

the attempt to create desire as a means of power expression/behavior control is a form of hurt. and, it's not up to you to dictate to men the terrain on which they choose their expression, any more than it's up to men to dictate to women etc. "of course they can ..." is pure sexism.

The attempt to create desire is as old as our genes. My dictation amounts to no more than saying 'don't hurt anyone' to both sexes.

 

[pk]

Oh, well. That's OK then. As long as we all know she's not good enough for you.

It's not that she's "not good enough", it's because the act of groping her would somehow justify her existence.

And her bingo-wings would make me feel a little ill. And she's a twat, basically, not a nice lady at all.

No groping Rhianna just because you consider her worthy of you, now.

I'm not sure I consider her worthy of me, I don't much like her nasal voice and crappy pop songs. But she's good looking.

Unfortunately for her I'm not into groping women, even if invited to do so, unless said woman is the one I elected to spend my life with on a monogamous basis ten years ago.

 

[miss minnie]

... the girl looks like a porn star, and it's the permissive style of dressing that makes the connection in many mens (and womens) minds that the wearer is blatantly inviting sexual attention. Whether this is to do with porn itself, in that women dressing this way usually precludes hardcore sexual acts in the minds of porn users...

 

[gavman]

Of course women can dress any way they want.

However if anyone here is suggesting that walking down the street in your underwear will not result in unwanted attention they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I have a right to leave my front door open all day long if I want and it doesn't mean that people are entitled to come inside and help themselves to my stuff. However, the world being what it is, and people being what they are, if I do leave my front door open all day long and go out all day I should not be too surprised if I return to a home stripped of valuables.

A young woman who is a neighbour of mine enjoys strolling around in a basque, stockings and suspenders and high heels.

I got talking to her in Tescos after, dressed in the above manner, she went shopping and attracted unwanted attention. I walked half way back to her home just to make sure she didn't get raped or attacked.

Since then I have gotten to know her a little bit and we often chat if we see each other in the street. She is a very sweet and innocent young woman who has no idea of the reaction she causes in others. She likes alternative music and rubber / plastic clothing and while I agree that she is entitled to wear what she wants I worry about her safety as she occasionally strolls around on her own in high heels and lingerie. She has no martial arts skills and even if she did these would be compromised by wearing 6" stilettos that she can hardly walk in let alone fight in.

I am not suggesting that women who wear very little clothing in public are asking to be raped, obviously, but I think there is a collective denial here about the fact that some young women do make themselves vulnerable to harassment simply by how they dress.

FWIW I identify with this young woman to some extent as when I was a teenager I wore incredibly sexy clothes (although I didn't realise it at the time - I just wanted to look attractive) and I experienced continual harassment from men.

The fact is that young women who were sexually abused as children, as I was, do sometimes dress in an overtly sexual way and do not really comprehend that they are doing this. Young women whose mothers did not honour their feminine gender identity also IME have a tendency to dress in an overtly sexualised way, simply because they struggle with not knowing how to express themselves and their femininity.

Of course none of this means that these young women are "asking for it". On the contrary sexual harassment is the last thing they need. Obviously.

I just don't really think that marching for the right to dress in underwear in public is the most constructive use of my time. I also don't really buy the idea of "reclaiming" the word slut.

I don't begrudge others having fun by going on marches like this one if they want to, I just sense that there is a manic subtext to the discourse of "slutwalk" in which important issues relating sexual abuse and gender identity are denied.

I have to honestly say that I do not understand why miss minnie is so excited about wanting to separate the issues of slutwalk and sexual behaviour.

If they have to be kept separate in threads (a bizarre concept IMO) then why does ymu keep spamming her blog here? I only read the short except that she posted here but it seems to be all about her own sex life and sexual behaviour.

Is it that people can talk about women's clothing and slutwalk (which by its very name has associations of sexual behaviour, whether it's reclaiming the word or whatever) providing that they are promoting a blog about their sex life but not if they want to comment on the blog or on sex generally?

very brave post, considering the climate.
i'm not going to undermine your position by saying i agree with you

 

[pk]

It's the red bra exposed that does it - like a red rag to a bull. Blink182 hardly being the protectors of the essence of women's rights, her make up and especially red lipstick is at odds with the more practical application from the lady on the right.

 

[gavman]

that's exactly what you're suggesting




im not sure someone who advocates genital groping to stop evil transsexuals going into lesbian clubs and raping women is particularly well qualified to talk about issues relating to sexual abuse and gender identity

good grief.
this is how far we are from being able to discuss this subject sensibly

 

[pk]

Can we have a "Skankwalk" next - where participants are expected to strut in a manner comparable to Suggs and his chums from popular beat combo Madness?

Knickers and bras optional.

 

[miss minnie]

It's the red bra exposed that does it - like a red rag to a bull. Blink182 hardly being the protectors of the essence of women's rights, her make up and especially red lipstick is at odds with the more practical application from the lady on the right.

Ah yes, the lady on the right is perfectly safe from perverts.



(hint: the sexualisation of uniforms.)


Ever read Kalooki Nights by Howard Jacobson?

 

[gavman]

eh?

it's perfectly possible to ignore a woman dressed provocatively. it doesn't effect control in anyone other than those who willingly buy into it. and men do it too. different men do it in different ways (just like women) - perhaps the male version of dressing skimpily is to flash the cash, brag about the car, offer to buy drinks etc. and it would be ridiculous to maintain that in doing so women are being controlled - because they can choose not to have a drink bought for them... not to play the game. but it's these men trying to feel sexually powerful and attractive, just the same.

so buying someone a drink is exercising power, whereas getting a man to buy you a drink because you are dressed in a way that will excite him isn't?

you also show a fundamental lack of understanding of what excites men and women. male masturbatory aids are almost exclusively visual; porn.
whereas for women it is physical aids such as vibrators or the rabbit. so when women dress provocatively they genuinely don't understand the response they are causing, other than the enjoying free drinks they get bought
does flashing the cash or bragging about a car actually turn women on? is it a prelude to masturbation when women are by themselves, to imagine flash blokes with lots of money?
or does this analogy show you haven't understood the power manipulation that is actually taking place?

 

[gavman]

Women ogle men, and sexually harrass them too. It's not an either or.

It's just that the average physical power difference means that women are more easily and more often overpowered, the asymmetry of sex allows a woman to be raped when not physically ready for it, and patriarchy encourages men to think of us as property.

And men like petee seem to think sexual violence is a reasonable response to provocative dress. Which is pretty fucked up. I see a peachy arse or incredible torso every other day, and manage to keep my hands, and cunt, to myself. Go figure.

what is fucked up is all the negative shit you project onto any bloke who disagrees with you

 

[ymu]

Thing is, I mght be straddling some guy's cock in public, and it wouldn't mean every other guy was free to have a poke.

I'm not suggesting it's a good idea to go round havng sex in public, only that my choices do not translate into blanket permissions and I get offended when people assume they do, whether pervy blokes or Victorian moralists.

 

[gavman]

the attempt to create desire as a means of power expression/behavior control is a form of hurt. and, it's not up to you to dictate to men the terrain on which they choose their expression, any more than it's up to men to dictate to women etc. "of course they can ..." is pure sexism.

well said. when i'm lonely a gorgeous girl dressed in skimpy clothing is actually painful to behold. it's like twisting a knife and saying 'look, see what you can't have'