Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
they're included in the everyone i mentioned in my last post. As you might expect.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
So maybe the slogan should be “trans-women are human”. No-one would object to that
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I wouldn't be so confident
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Anyway after all this won't it probably be off now
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
"it needs understand from all sides"
There are people out there who are campaigning on the premise that trans people are mentally ill people who you should fear cause they'll probably rape you in the toilets and others who forward the idea that trans politics is some eugenics programme to wipe out gay people.
If those people don't fit your definition of transphobe then that's your malfunction.
We have no interest in petitioning for the understanding of such bigots and we do not expect the victims of abuse at their hands to "understand" them either.
There are people out there who are campaigning on the premise that trans people are mentally ill people who you should fear cause they'll probably rape you in the toilets and others who forward the idea that trans politics is some eugenics programme to wipe out gay people.
If those people don't fit your definition of transphobe then that's your malfunction.
We have no interest in petitioning for the understanding of such bigots and we do not expect the victims of abuse at their hands to "understand" them either.
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I take it that is a reference to Covid 19?
Bookfair 2020 is in October, quite some time away and almost certainly the virus will have diminished by then regardless of what happens these next few weeks. We will ofcourse monitor the situation and take the appropriate action.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Of course the people you're talking about are transphobes! No one is disagreeing with that. The problem is, all sorts of people are being labelled as transphobes when they are clearly not, people who would be horrified at the things you correctly say constitutes transphobia.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, they're transphobes. I don't think any anarchist would deny that. The disagreement is around far less clear cut cases. In your view, does 'transphobe' accurately describe a woman who doesn't believe that trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
One of the problems here is precisely that of definition. The new transgender ideology is not accepted (yet?) by an awful lot of people. What defines a woman? What defines a man? What does trans mean, in detail?
There is no agreement on these and many other questions relating to these issues. Rhyddical lumps together anyone with clearly transphobic views with people who are simply more cautious. I could do the same and lump all trans people in with those who chant “kill all terfs” and similar. But I’m not going to do that, because that would be unproductive and simplistic.
If self-Id means automatically accepting what someone says as being true, can you not see that many women, in particular, are uneasy with that? Because, after all, people can lie, be mistaken, hallucinate, change their minds, say things they don’t mean for a whole heap of reasons. Some men, a minority, can go to some lengths to abuse or attack women. I can fully understand why women might be uneasy or scared.
So there are some fundamental philosophical and ideological discussions to be had, which are being shut down before most people have even heard of the issue. And there are some practical, day-to-day matters which are not even being aired because of an atmosphere of intimidation.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Here is the thing tho, this "all sorts of people are being labelled transphobes" animosity is being levelled at anyone who says "no transphobes". There is a presumption of "sudo anarchist authoritarianism" or "neo liberalism" that is really unbecoming. We don't demand 56 pages of sspecifics and repitions with "no racists" and "no homophobes" Tho if I remember my history, we used too, and we all know back in the old days people used to gripe that they were "distractionss" and casual bigotry was much more accepted.
Mind you "all sorts of people are labelled nazis" even when they ain't, they just love Britain innit.
It is an issue in our politics that we sometimes apply blanket banners calls instead of nuance, however sometimes, when people are facing brutal hostility and abuse we cannot afford the nuance.
Thus, people who parrot the talking point of racists and bigots, get dismissed summarily.
Is it perfect? no. , but it's sure as shit understandable.
Our definition of Transphobes has been given numerous times and we've stated several times that pretty much everyone is welcome provided they respect the space and yet we still have these accusations levelled against us, manufactured entierly our of a reactionary fear that the "liberal authoritarian/IdPol" lot are taking over.
Maybe take "no transphobes" with than merit you do "no racists", trust your comrades not to be banning everyone arbitarily, and think maybe for a moment, we actually know what we're talking about. We're not mass banning anyone, even those who have flown a the union jack, thought the royal wedding was nice or even shock horror secretly worry that they might be "trapped" by a trans women. Respect the space, come along and encounter new and strange ideals like solidarity and how to not be a bigot. Afterall, TBH for me the bookfair is less about providing a shopping day for Anarchos that getting the curious along to see what this whole, no gods,no mastars malarky is about.
Mind you "all sorts of people are labelled nazis" even when they ain't, they just love Britain innit.
It is an issue in our politics that we sometimes apply blanket banners calls instead of nuance, however sometimes, when people are facing brutal hostility and abuse we cannot afford the nuance.
Thus, people who parrot the talking point of racists and bigots, get dismissed summarily.
Is it perfect? no. , but it's sure as shit understandable.
Our definition of Transphobes has been given numerous times and we've stated several times that pretty much everyone is welcome provided they respect the space and yet we still have these accusations levelled against us, manufactured entierly our of a reactionary fear that the "liberal authoritarian/IdPol" lot are taking over.
Maybe take "no transphobes" with than merit you do "no racists", trust your comrades not to be banning everyone arbitarily, and think maybe for a moment, we actually know what we're talking about. We're not mass banning anyone, even those who have flown a the union jack, thought the royal wedding was nice or even shock horror secretly worry that they might be "trapped" by a trans women. Respect the space, come along and encounter new and strange ideals like solidarity and how to not be a bigot. Afterall, TBH for me the bookfair is less about providing a shopping day for Anarchos that getting the curious along to see what this whole, no gods,no mastars malarky is about.
I would be interested to know if any dissenters have attended book fair meetings and could testify to the level of consensus being reached . Rhyddical has already mentioned that
I am assuming these meetings have had at least some level of consensus, but I have a suspicion due to the amount of grumpy anarchists about that not a satisfactory level has been reached... mainly around the justice system currently being deployed . I mean ... crime and punishment .... it is a big and complex issue!
I am assuming these meetings have had at least some level of consensus, but I have a suspicion due to the amount of grumpy anarchists about that not a satisfactory level has been reached... mainly around the justice system currently being deployed . I mean ... crime and punishment .... it is a big and complex issue!
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Hurray! No argument about Helen Steel then.
you love this 'argument' Only problem with it is that I dont know of any organisation that makes any such claim. There may be the odd individual, you can find all sorts of fuckwit on twitter, but there isn't one trans rights organisation that does so. It almost as if you were setting up an impossible task so that people were bound to fail! But that cant be right, cos only those making excuses for bigots do that.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
like you are now?
Athos
Well-Known Member
What question am I ducking?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
what trans rights organisations actually demand that 'trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?'
Athos
Well-Known Member
It wasn't originally phrased as a question. But I'm happy to answer: None, to my knowledge. So what? My question was whether that is the new bookfair's position. While we're at it, what's yours? Is it transphobic to say that? What about women whose definition of their own sex does not encompass trans women?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
So you agree you are setting up a false position which is all but impossible to meet. Something you have done on thread after thread, not just restricted to the bookfair. How utterly dishonest. you have no interest in coming to any wide agreement.
Surely that's what the whole row is about?. What else could "Transwomen are women" mean?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
There are people on both sides who see no grey areas and believe nothing is up for discussion. They are not our comrades. No one is supporting such vile transphobes, nor should we be supporting those elements among the trans allies who act like cultists. There are grey areas and there is a discussion to be had, as long as it's in good faith.
As for the idea that the response to racism was treated differently... well, we talked to people within the class, arguments were had, people were convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we worked together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... and that undermined racist attitudes far better than the current shouty finger pointing call out culture ever will.
As for the idea that the response to racism was treated differently... well, we talked to people within the class, arguments were had, people were convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we worked together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... and that undermined racist attitudes far better than the current shouty finger pointing call out culture ever will.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
that transwomen are legally recognised as women and can, for instance, get a passport stating that. Some object to that because the passport says'Sex' and that cant be changed!!!!! It would also allow transwomen are allowed access to women's spaces (such as refuges), as long as the staff there did not think it might put anyone else at risk (ie, the same as for any other woman). It wouldn't mean that transwomen must be allowed into, say a group for women who have issues around their abortions (tho, of course, most transwomen are very supportive of reproductive rights campaigns as they have an obvious interest in bodily autonomy), just like transwomen don't refuse to have prostate exams.
To quote Julia Serrano - "The problem isn’t that we (i.e., trans women) refuse to acknowledge any differences, but rather that the trans-women-aren’t-women crowd refuses to acknowledge our many similarities.
Trans women are women. We may not be “exactly like” cis women, but then again, cis women are not all “exactly like” one another either. But what we do share is that we all identify and move through the world as women. And because of this, we all regularly face sexism. That is what we should be focusing on and working together to challenge. And as I said at the outset, forcing trans women into a separate group that is distinct from cis women does not in any way help achieve feminism’s central goal of ending sexism. In fact, it only serves to undermine our collective cause."
Athos
Well-Known Member
Identifying as a woman isn't that big a commonality between people who have a different concept of what a woman is.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
thank you for your pointless comment.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Yours is a valid point of view. Trouble is that not everyone agrees with it. A lot of women don’t agree. You maybe able to persuade most of them given time. But the way the whole debate is currently being treated in the anarchist movement, socialist groups, trades unions, Labour Green and Lib Dem’s, gay and lesbian groups etc is alienating an awful lot of women, some of whom have been activists for a long time. They’re being labelled transphobes for simply refusing to lie down in front of the trans juggernaut. Cut them some slack.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
There are, of course, plenty of cis-women who are uncertain on the question, who actually want to support transwomen but aren't in agreement about everything. They are, of course, people we should have a reasoned discussion with. But there are those, and sadly there are plenty of them, particularly around the awful WPUK, who will never accept transwomen as women, and who wilfully promulgate lies about trans people and what the 'trans position' is. They can fuck off.
Are there not a variety of trans positions? There are trans women who speak on WPUK platforms aren't there?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
absolutely - that's why I put 'trans position' in inverted commas. And, yes, there are a small number of individual trans women who support WPUK. But there were always small numbers of non-white people speaking on EDL demos as well.
No trans organisation supports the idea that trans womens experiences must be considered exactly the same as cis-women's experiences though. It's a false position promoted so as to create a demand that can never be met.
Athos
Well-Known Member
There are those who will never accept that transwomen are women, but who do not promulgate lies about trans people. How (if at all) do you propose engaging with them? Are they all necessarily transphobes?
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