Now now, Butchers, I wouldn’t go that far.
However, if we’re both looking at the same map then surely they ought to be accommodated sometimes.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Now now, Butchers, I wouldn’t go that far.
However, if we’re both looking at the same map then surely they ought to be accommodated sometimes.
Yep . I've been on a brake to fix myself for the past 2 years now but people are still at it
Cant beat a friendly anti-capitalist environment within the community.Although .... the general reaction to the squatting laws was piss poor in the uk and it has downsized . Didn't somebody squat Paddington cop shop
Recently?
Green Anticapitalist week of action, Green Anticapitalist Front @ 2020-02-24 00:00:00 to 2020-03-02 00:00:00 | radar.squat.net
The British government has been elected and, with the Tories in power, it looks bleaker for the future of our planet than ever before.
The no-smoking no-drugs/drink thing could be understandable when talking about a certain space at a certain time but when your living there and running a public space ... I don`t know.... but it could explain why they are so miserable :/ (or expose their neo-liberal internalization lol)
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Yes. But like you (I suspect) I'll only find out about them after they've happened.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Speaking as someone who for a fair bit has been (and will continue to be) involved with anarchist politics, I fucking hate the anarchist "scene".
I thought it was the sudo command in linux that was meant. Using sudo in linux basically gives you admin privileges over the system. It kind of fits, "authoritarian sudo" in the sense of trying to take over the system by granting oneself admin privileges.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Can everyone stop using impenetrable slang and posting stupid videos please.
Join the nihilists, we have cookies and none of that sudo anarchist bullshit.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
so much for opposing the surveillance state!
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
RTWL, I'm a 100% down for people respecting the house rules of the place they are in.
Y'all drink, fart n smoke, guests can make the choice to come in or not, don't for a moment think telling people to jog on if they don't like the nature of your space is authoritarian at all.
It's the same thing with not having transphobes in our space.
Always respect the house rules even if you disgree with them, I used to visit a squat where they added milk into tea first like fucking heathens...... but it's their gaff.
We don't want bigots, we don't want racists, we don't want misogynists around ours event. I'd hope fellow anarchists could understand and respect this.
Seems some of the hostile manner here is the projection of this "sudo anarcho neo liberal authorianisn etc etc" lot onto the bookfair becuase we aim to provide a space in which our guests, stalls and attendees arn't confronting with bigots who seek to undermine their very existence.
The two ain't the same and maybe give us the benefit of the doubt before making the assumption coz frankly impliying that we're in any way authoritarian for not welcoming bigots, right wingers and all manner of assorted wallies is frankly fucking trash.
I'm 34, (maybe a baby to some) and I come from the salty mouthed, dark humoured, drinking, smoking, farting and pissing off the wet behind the ears reactionary lot too, I've had the same squat guests and groin at their liberal whinings, my favourite being don't have red and black flags up becuase it looks aggressive and scares people off.
Thing is, there are compromises and there are aspects that need to change in our movement, shit like not tolerating people who spew shite like "cocks in frocks" "trans traps" "jew funded agenda" and "eugenically erasing out gay people" should come naturally to us and yet we Anarchists have allowed it to set in like a rot, conflating it with the perhaps oh so reactionary neo-liberal, labour friendly lot who, like you say, smack of authouritarianism, a sort of rigid pressure to be chase some utopian vision.
We're better than this us or them bullshit and rather than by into these manufactured fears that bookfair is now ran by some semi stalinist mob, maybe assume instead that we're a bunch of comrades who just don't like bigots and think that, like the misogynists and racists before them, transphobes can get to fuck.
Y'all drink, fart n smoke, guests can make the choice to come in or not, don't for a moment think telling people to jog on if they don't like the nature of your space is authoritarian at all.
It's the same thing with not having transphobes in our space.
Always respect the house rules even if you disgree with them, I used to visit a squat where they added milk into tea first like fucking heathens...... but it's their gaff.
We don't want bigots, we don't want racists, we don't want misogynists around ours event. I'd hope fellow anarchists could understand and respect this.
Seems some of the hostile manner here is the projection of this "sudo anarcho neo liberal authorianisn etc etc" lot onto the bookfair becuase we aim to provide a space in which our guests, stalls and attendees arn't confronting with bigots who seek to undermine their very existence.
The two ain't the same and maybe give us the benefit of the doubt before making the assumption coz frankly impliying that we're in any way authoritarian for not welcoming bigots, right wingers and all manner of assorted wallies is frankly fucking trash.
I'm 34, (maybe a baby to some) and I come from the salty mouthed, dark humoured, drinking, smoking, farting and pissing off the wet behind the ears reactionary lot too, I've had the same squat guests and groin at their liberal whinings, my favourite being don't have red and black flags up becuase it looks aggressive and scares people off.
Thing is, there are compromises and there are aspects that need to change in our movement, shit like not tolerating people who spew shite like "cocks in frocks" "trans traps" "jew funded agenda" and "eugenically erasing out gay people" should come naturally to us and yet we Anarchists have allowed it to set in like a rot, conflating it with the perhaps oh so reactionary neo-liberal, labour friendly lot who, like you say, smack of authouritarianism, a sort of rigid pressure to be chase some utopian vision.
We're better than this us or them bullshit and rather than by into these manufactured fears that bookfair is now ran by some semi stalinist mob, maybe assume instead that we're a bunch of comrades who just don't like bigots and think that, like the misogynists and racists before them, transphobes can get to fuck.
Cool. It is simply your authority to impose restrictions on gatherings that is being questioned . You are responding well , yet the 'my way or the highway' attitude to security and the manner in which bigots are dealt with on this thread is still questionable.
The dealing with bigots and offenders in generall is somthing I think a lot of people are concerned with. Not weather to deal with them or not , but the manner in which justice is sought, the trail, and the punishment .
I myself have witnessed a number of kangaroo courts and this is where my concern arises.
I think this needs a bit of work ... but that is for us all to achieve.
The fact your bothering to reply to some random of teh interwebs does give me hope
The dealing with bigots and offenders in generall is somthing I think a lot of people are concerned with. Not weather to deal with them or not , but the manner in which justice is sought, the trail, and the punishment .
I myself have witnessed a number of kangaroo courts and this is where my concern arises.
I think this needs a bit of work ... but that is for us all to achieve.
The fact your bothering to reply to some random of teh interwebs does give me hope
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
The manner in which we will be dealing with bigots is not of my personal choosing, but that of the collective after some very long conversations both internally and with other comrades from across the scene and specifically from other bookfairs. Security is being
co-ordinated by a primarily woman fronted collective who have history providing such a service in informal and proffesional settings. There will also be security from the venue host as per their insurance for large events tho they will be taking a back step and not really part of events, this is not really an unusual course of affairs really.
I totally understand the concerns around Kangaroo Courts and the like and why people would jump to that conclusion, there has very much been a displacement of nuance and reason for absolutist reactionary positions, not only in Anarchism but across the political spectrum as people are pushed into polorised and vocal positions. The changing face of politics leaving many behind, particularly those of us who grew up a bit rough and ready. The easy conclusion is that of middle class liberals taking control and displacing working class folk, but it's simply not the case... I'd argue not in the wider movement and certainly not in our space.
Truly I rather hope those who disagree with the way we keep our house, choose to respect it, live up to Anarchist values and chose not to slam in to spew abuse at comrades and instead respect the space. I have absolutely no doubt there will be a great many people who feel differently to me on the issue of trans rights who will attend bookfair for all the right reasons , respect the space and maybe even attend some workshops that make them challenge their positions.
I know I write like a tit sometimes but honestly I'm not here for a barny but to touch base with comrades who've perhaps lost faith in the movement and bridge that gap.
Some folk here talk like the kids are their enemy, that they've ruined Anarchism and I think thats a lot of jolly old rot, the last back with memes and stuff is understandable really.
I'd rather we used Bookfair 2020 as a conduit for moving beyond the animosity, the youth could do with learning the leassons of the past and fuck, developing some of the steel and resolve and they can't do that if everyone over thirty is whining about kids today and refusing to shut up about how they don't trust trans women, which for some, is sadly the case.
co-ordinated by a primarily woman fronted collective who have history providing such a service in informal and proffesional settings. There will also be security from the venue host as per their insurance for large events tho they will be taking a back step and not really part of events, this is not really an unusual course of affairs really.
I totally understand the concerns around Kangaroo Courts and the like and why people would jump to that conclusion, there has very much been a displacement of nuance and reason for absolutist reactionary positions, not only in Anarchism but across the political spectrum as people are pushed into polorised and vocal positions. The changing face of politics leaving many behind, particularly those of us who grew up a bit rough and ready. The easy conclusion is that of middle class liberals taking control and displacing working class folk, but it's simply not the case... I'd argue not in the wider movement and certainly not in our space.
Truly I rather hope those who disagree with the way we keep our house, choose to respect it, live up to Anarchist values and chose not to slam in to spew abuse at comrades and instead respect the space. I have absolutely no doubt there will be a great many people who feel differently to me on the issue of trans rights who will attend bookfair for all the right reasons , respect the space and maybe even attend some workshops that make them challenge their positions.
I know I write like a tit sometimes but honestly I'm not here for a barny but to touch base with comrades who've perhaps lost faith in the movement and bridge that gap.
Some folk here talk like the kids are their enemy, that they've ruined Anarchism and I think thats a lot of jolly old rot, the last back with memes and stuff is understandable really.
I'd rather we used Bookfair 2020 as a conduit for moving beyond the animosity, the youth could do with learning the leassons of the past and fuck, developing some of the steel and resolve and they can't do that if everyone over thirty is whining about kids today and refusing to shut up about how they don't trust trans women, which for some, is sadly the case.
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I think there is a generational gap. Not completely age related but more based on which point and angle you found the movement.
What I would define as your group I belive should be highly commended for the zeal and strength shown pushing trans and anti-abuse agenda . It needed to be done ... I think we all realise that ..... so I am going to get out of the frame of mind of calling you psudo-anarchists , as I now see I was overreacting to the casual manner at which issues were being dismissed. . and the my way or the highway attitude .
Edit - Yer sorry about this last bit I was at work and not paying enough attention to your posts .
On that note I would say that the book fair is not your property. You do not own it, we all do . The change in attitude from everyone involved and using consensus to make decisions (trad anarchism) to ... look we are organising the gig , if you disagree do your own thing -is quite a large one and may be alienating people.
What I would define as your group I belive should be highly commended for the zeal and strength shown pushing trans and anti-abuse agenda . It needed to be done ... I think we all realise that ..... so I am going to get out of the frame of mind of calling you psudo-anarchists , as I now see I was overreacting to the casual manner at which issues were being dismissed. . and the my way or the highway attitude .
Edit - Yer sorry about this last bit I was at work and not paying enough attention to your posts .
On that note I would say that the book fair is not your property. You do not own it, we all do . The change in attitude from everyone involved and using consensus to make decisions (trad anarchism) to ... look we are organising the gig , if you disagree do your own thing -is quite a large one and may be alienating people.
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
It doesn’t really matter what I post here. I’m transphobic, bigoted, reactionary, right-wing, absolutist, misogynistic and over thirty. And that’s on a good day.
But I’m going to have a go anyway. There is no consensus on this new transgender ideology. To attempt to impose one is not only wrong but futile, and that applies to all political movements. To attempt to silence discussion will only make matters worse. The current organisers of the Bookfair will go merrily on their way siding with one group at the expense of the other, but it will leave many with a bitter taste in their mouth and resentment at the way this issue has been allowed to dominate and divide.
But I’m going to have a go anyway. There is no consensus on this new transgender ideology. To attempt to impose one is not only wrong but futile, and that applies to all political movements. To attempt to silence discussion will only make matters worse. The current organisers of the Bookfair will go merrily on their way siding with one group at the expense of the other, but it will leave many with a bitter taste in their mouth and resentment at the way this issue has been allowed to dominate and divide.
Not only no consensus, but no realistic path to achieving one bar unconditional surrender of one side or the other.
This is the crux . Who is it who is pushing the polarization ? Gaslighting ? Raising the adrenaline levels. I suppose on one side you have genuine bigots that have been called out defending their narrative , and the other you have a reactionary zeal not seen since the
scum manifesto thing. As I said earlier I think the zeal was justified to spearhead the issue, but due to it`s success (partly aided by the fact that neo-liberalism does not hinder gender criticism and id-pol stuff like it does anti-war/class politics ) it seems to have gone a bit wrong.
You say
So I guess I would like to know what you think is
BTW this does not come under your duties to book fair really. After reading what you posted properly and having a think about it, as long as your process has been consensus based I have no gripes whatsoever
so apologies far the last bit of last post edited in above 
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
It’s easy to get consensus if you exclude anyone who disagrees with you and then label them as the spawn of Satan, or whatever....as long as your process has been consensus based I have no gripes whatsoever
Athos
Well-Known Member
Ok boomer.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Labelling them the spawn of Satan makes them sound much more exciting than they are
Athos
Well-Known Member
I’m Gen X, but I agree with Fozzie Bear
So do I. But I'm trying to be down with kids.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It’s about as convincing as I’d be.
who are they though? ...
I mean... in my experience, at the coalface of the movement are those who have felt the brutal oppression of capital. Would you call the indigenous resistance to capitalism
Check out Amilio Avila; Mexican revolutionary, I bet they were a bit rough round the edges. Amelio Robles Ávila - Wikipedia
I mean... in my experience, at the coalface of the movement are those who have felt the brutal oppression of capital. Would you call the indigenous resistance to capitalism
a bit rough and ready ? Yes. I would also call it the majority of effective anti-capital resistance. So .... we/you might need them/us?Check out Amilio Avila; Mexican revolutionary, I bet they were a bit rough round the edges. Amelio Robles Ávila - Wikipedia
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Me...literally every time the eldest takes me out in Brighton...for the 1st half hour anyway...after I've had a couple, I'm fine
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
In my honest opinion, we need each other.
The hardy and the soft hearted.
The tradies and the students.
The militant and the academic.
Those who look beyond social ills to direct their energies towards fighting class oppression, and those who dive into the minutia details and seek to eradicate every minor element of social heirarchial and oppression.
In many ways I think the arguements over the word "cunt" are a a wonderful example of this, an array of positions with die hard absolutist extremes. the argument itself for some a diversion and distraction, for others a noble struggle against misogyny/liberalism depending on your perspective.
What ticks me right off tho here is the way in which we as a community of revolutionary anarchists have allowed a aspect of outright bigotry become so obfuscated with the hardy folk vs liberal absolutists, like standing against overt abuse is in some how realted to more zealous attempts to forward some utopian vison. I hear the same things from some American comrades around the BLM movement amongst other things and it smacks of class reductionism and woeful ignorance of the struggles of others, on the otherside of the coin you have a rabid IdPol crowd who reduce everything down to their chosen aspect of oppression and act much in the same shitty manner.
This thread is rampant with it, our decision not to welcome transphobic bigots dismissed as idpol, liberalism or sudo anarchist authoritarianism ;p
Nah, we just have no time for transphobes, much as we have no time for racists.
Thankfully we don't have to explain why we won't be offering The Hundred Hands a stall.
We don't own bookfair, you are right, but we have become the custodians of the event and we're trying to steer it into a model which not only reflects the current movement but is accessable to all (much as the previous crew did). We've taken on some more specific distinctions around bigotry yes, and noted people that arn't welcome, but this is nothing new, every bookfair collective since day dot has done this. We're not going to be micro managing the event, nor even leading it's security (leaving that to a anarchistic community who have stepped up). Our job on the day will be getting the tables out, keepin the workshops on schedule and cleaning up the mess the following day.
I'm sure we'll make mistakes along the way, it would of been nice if the previous collective were more comradely and stepped in to help us fill in their shoes, and provide sage like lessons from their wealth of experiance but they for whatever reason felt unable to do this, so we're probably going to have a few misteps, not only this year but next year and the one after, we're just some comrades taking on a whole new skillset while you know, doing revolutionary shit and suriviving capitalism like everyone else. It's been pretty fun so far but when it turns out we underbooked chairs or something, and people get salty over nothing, I'll probably feel otherwise hahah
The hardy and the soft hearted.
The tradies and the students.
The militant and the academic.
Those who look beyond social ills to direct their energies towards fighting class oppression, and those who dive into the minutia details and seek to eradicate every minor element of social heirarchial and oppression.
In many ways I think the arguements over the word "cunt" are a a wonderful example of this, an array of positions with die hard absolutist extremes. the argument itself for some a diversion and distraction, for others a noble struggle against misogyny/liberalism depending on your perspective.
What ticks me right off tho here is the way in which we as a community of revolutionary anarchists have allowed a aspect of outright bigotry become so obfuscated with the hardy folk vs liberal absolutists, like standing against overt abuse is in some how realted to more zealous attempts to forward some utopian vison. I hear the same things from some American comrades around the BLM movement amongst other things and it smacks of class reductionism and woeful ignorance of the struggles of others, on the otherside of the coin you have a rabid IdPol crowd who reduce everything down to their chosen aspect of oppression and act much in the same shitty manner.
This thread is rampant with it, our decision not to welcome transphobic bigots dismissed as idpol, liberalism or sudo anarchist authoritarianism ;p
Nah, we just have no time for transphobes, much as we have no time for racists.
Thankfully we don't have to explain why we won't be offering The Hundred Hands a stall.
We don't own bookfair, you are right, but we have become the custodians of the event and we're trying to steer it into a model which not only reflects the current movement but is accessable to all (much as the previous crew did). We've taken on some more specific distinctions around bigotry yes, and noted people that arn't welcome, but this is nothing new, every bookfair collective since day dot has done this. We're not going to be micro managing the event, nor even leading it's security (leaving that to a anarchistic community who have stepped up). Our job on the day will be getting the tables out, keepin the workshops on schedule and cleaning up the mess the following day.
I'm sure we'll make mistakes along the way, it would of been nice if the previous collective were more comradely and stepped in to help us fill in their shoes, and provide sage like lessons from their wealth of experiance but they for whatever reason felt unable to do this, so we're probably going to have a few misteps, not only this year but next year and the one after, we're just some comrades taking on a whole new skillset while you know, doing revolutionary shit and suriviving capitalism like everyone else. It's been pretty fun so far but when it turns out we underbooked chairs or something, and people get salty over nothing, I'll probably feel otherwise hahah
Athos
Well-Known Member
No anarchists have time for transphobes. The real issue is your exercise of power over anachists who disagree with your definition of 'transphobe'.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Not only the definition but how to deal with those so defined, while others might see possible grey areas. Let's face it, not even trans folk agree on who is/is not a transphobe, never mind their 'allies' in the shouty anarchist scene.
Point is, how exactly do those of us with revolutionary politics come together to fight against capitalism, the state, without kicking off at each other over whi is/isn't a transphobe. It needs understanding from all sides, not simple attack attack attack.
Point is, how exactly do those of us with revolutionary politics come together to fight against capitalism, the state, without kicking off at each other over whi is/isn't a transphobe. It needs understanding from all sides, not simple attack attack attack.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I think you’ll find that none of your nuance counts for anything. The fact that large numbers of women reject these new definitions of gender counts for nothing as well. There is only one version of reality and if anyone questions it they are transphobic bigots, no space for debate or free discussion. Depressing.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You could just treat everyone as human
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Do gender critical feminists not count as human anymore?
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