London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[belboid]

So, in the individual case of a particular woman who has a legitimate need to be in a single-sex space, how would you guarantee the sex of the other users of that space? I don't like the idea of checking birth certificates, but it's hard to see any other way, without effectively abandoning the single-sex exemption.

birth certificates won't help if a GRAlike law is passed, that would be the point of it. You (or appropriate people with relevant experience) would have to talk to both (all) parties and use their judgement about who should join what group, etc. Just like they do now.

 

[Athos]

birth certificates won't help if a GRAlike law is passed, that would be the point of it.

Which is part of the resistance to people being able to change their birth certificate more easily.

You (or appropriate people with relevant experience) would have to talk to both (all) parties and use their judgement about who should join what group, etc. Just like they do now.

Under your system, if, when speaking to people, they lie about/don't reveal their biological sex, you can't effectively provide single-sex spaces, even in the most essential cases. Can you see why that's something that bothers some women?

 

[Red Sky]

not really. You would also have to show that any differences made any difference. All humans' brains are slightly different, that doesn't affect the notion that we could and should be treated equally.

But you're using these supposed differences to give a concrete biological basis to gender identity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hammer of the Scots Trots,

John Reid.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's not what I said. By far the largest majority of posters who haven't been banned probably haven't been banned because they already had a position that was congruent with the "community values" and hence were never "threatened" with a ban to change their position.

Most of us have been banned at one time or another. Mostly by editor and his former psychopathic sidekick Crispy , but FridgeMagnet is ban-happy too. Cunts, the lot of 'em.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This kind of smug bullshit does not help you and your little authoritarian neo-liberal sudo anarchists, but keeps in line to the way you handle calling people out (or not handle but fuck up badly!) and your transparent attempts to own anarchism . It's like you think you know better than everybody who came before you . Arrogant, ineffective, egotistical, no-solidarity, no class-conciousness(i aint buying your fake shit) .... absolutely useless in ruck ... cultists; thats you.

I hate anarchists that do sudo-ku.

 

[smokedout]

As I understand it the piece was written three years ago in anticipation of the oncoming shit storm.

But doesn't the idea of innate gender identity directly contradict the idea of gender as a social construct?

Not necessarily. Innate gender identity could be to do with how we experience our bodies, or some kind of sense of selfhood which isn't yet understood, but which has nothing to do with aptitudes, personality or behaviour. From a scientific point of view we don't know what gender identity is or how it functions. What we do know is that something which appears to look like transsexuality, or discordant gender identity is widely observed in many different cultures, that millions of trans people exist and pay a significant social penalty for being trans and that studies on intersex children attempting to negate gender identity have been at times tragic failures. That suggests there is something going on, something which is no doubt magnified significantly by patriarchy, and which we don't yet understand very well, which isn't unusual because we don;t actually understand brains that well.

But on a more pragmatic note, gendered society is real and 99.99% of the human population plays along. Even if gender dysphoria is merely an intense discomfort and dislike of the gender role you have been assigned, or a significant attraction to being of the opposite gender role then isn't that something that can, and perhaps should be accommodated? Cis people flaunt their gender all the time, our entire mainstream culture is largely based on it, and even if we oppose that it only seems to be trans people who are attacked so relentlessly for expressing gender.

 

[Athos]

Even if gender dysphoria is merely an intense discomfort and dislike of the gender role you have been assigned, or a significant attraction to being of the opposite gender role then isn't that something that can, and perhaps should be accommodated?

Of course it should (at least to an extent that balances any harm to others). But that's quite different from requiring people to believe that trans women are women. I think it's a shame that pushback against the latter has gone further than it should, into pushback against the former. But understandable (as are some of the excesses of the other 'side') in the context of the polarised debate.

 

[Red Sky]

Not necessarily. Innate gender identity could be to do with how we experience our bodies, or some kind of sense of selfhood which isn't yet understood, but which has nothing to do with aptitudes, personality or behaviour. From a scientific point of view we don't know what gender identity is or how it functions. What we do know is that something which appears to look like transsexuality, or discordant gender identity is widely observed in many different cultures, that millions of trans people exist and pay a significant social penalty for being trans and that studies on intersex children attempting to negate gender identity have been at times tragic failures. That suggests there is something going on, something which is no doubt magnified significantly by patriarchy, and which we don't yet understand very well, which isn't unusual because we don;t actually understand brains that well.

But on a more pragmatic note, gendered society is real and 99.99% of the human population plays along. Even if gender dysphoria is merely an intense discomfort and dislike of the gender role you have been assigned, or a significant attraction to being of the opposite gender role then isn't that something that can, and perhaps should be accommodated? Cis people flaunt their gender all the time, our entire mainstream culture is largely based on it, and even if we oppose that it only seems to be trans people who are attacked so relentlessly for expressing gender.

Gender critical types would argue that it's the concept of any gender roles at all that should be scrapped. Thought this was well understood?

 

[smokedout]

Gender critical types would argue that it's the concept of any gender roles at all that should be scrapped. Thought this was well understood?

Yes but most would recognise the intense pressure gendered society inflicts and so would not condemn a cis woman for wearing make up or perfume, although some of the old school might I grant you. Trans people arguably suffer from this pressure as much as anyone, and are not just condemned for expressing gender but blamed for gendered society existing. If the gender critical movement was really interested in destroying gender they would be attacking the fashion and entertainment industries just as viciously as they are trans people. But they rarely get a mention, and that's because the gender critical movement is really an anti-trans movement, not an anti-gender movement, or even a feminist movement anymore, there's been plenty of discussion at the more conservative end of the spectrum about if you even have to be a feminist to be gender critical. The growing number of misogynist male allies who now style themselves as gender critical is testament to that.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

because the gender critical movement is really an anti-trans movement, not an anti-gender movement, or even a feminist movement anymore, there's been plenty of discussion at the more conservative end of the spectrum about if you even have to be a feminist to be gender critical. The growing number of misogynist male allies who now style themselves as gender critical is testament to that.

You’re probably a nice person, so maybe you might reflect a bit more on what you say or imply. Just because people disagree with you does not make them malevolent or malign in some way.

On another note, what do you think Proudhon or Bakunin or Kropotkin or Malatesta or Durrutti or Goldman or any of the other anarchists of note from days gone by would make of all this shit? I think they would be amazed at how pointlessly self-destructive we’ve all become. Why bother with a revolution when you can have a squabble?

 

[chilango]

Anyway, to be blunt. By the time it'll be possible to put on the next Bookfair there'll be far more pressing concerns than any of this.

 

[LDC]

Yeah, no way will it be on this year.

 

[Serge Forward]

Nah, it'll happen.... on Skype.

 

[chilango]

Nah, it'll happen.... on Skype.

Oh boomer all the cool kids are using zoom.

 

[Serge Forward]

Damn you, technology

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh boomer all the cool kids are using zoom.

All the kids are using what now?

I used to be hip. (Yeah, I know. But I can pretend).

 

[Athos]

I need a new hip.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Anyway, to be blunt. By the time it'll be possible to put on the next Bookfair there'll be far more pressing concerns than any of this.

I hope that, in addition to arguing pedantically about The Definition Of What Is A Woman, and who will or will not be welcome at the Bookfair which isn't happening, the men on this thread are also engaging with their local Corvid 19 mutual aid groups.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I hope that, in addition to arguing pedantically about The Definition Of What Is A Woman, and who will or will not be welcome at the Bookfair which isn't happening, the men on this thread are also engaging with their local Corvid 19 mutual aid groups.

We got a spreadsheet up and running last week, and either phoned or left flyers all residents on our estate with contact info for shopping etc.

 

[Rhyddical]

As for the idea that the response to racism was treated differently... well, we talked to people within the class, arguments were had, people were convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we worked together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... and that undermined racist attitudes far better than the current shouty finger pointing call out culture ever will.

I mean I'm sorry you seem not to be aware but trans rights acitivsts and anarchist comrades in general are talking to people within the class, arguments are (rather obviously) being had, people are being convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we are working together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... Just af National Front puppets were excluding from the arguments on race, the bigots at the prominance of transphobic abuse arn't welcome. that is literally the be all and end all of our policy and I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene on a thread which numerous times has had outright transphobia and a scary tolerance for dogwhistles and bigotted talking points that too few of the U75 community seem keen to counter act.

If you aint a prominant bigot well known for atagonism and abuse, even if you have opinions and beliefs we might disagree with, provided you can respect the space and saftey of your anarchist comrades, you are welcome.

Not sure how many times I can repeat this.

Hopefully not going to come back for this talking point again, I'm a busy cat. If you want to learn more about why so many people are calling some of y'all pals bigots and why the science and social reality is on the side of the trans folk, here is some further reading Help! I’ve been called a transphobe! | Reading List – Organise Magazine

Love and Rage x

 

[Rhyddical]

Are there not a variety of trans positions? There are trans women who speak on WPUK platforms aren't there?

To my knowledge there are a few transexual men and women who ally with WPUK. They are universally know as Transmed / Truscum by others. Essentially they believe that unless you have the operation, take the hormones, and live as a "women" or "man" then you are not a woman or man etc etc. Essentially this means that a women with a penis has to not only go through years of drug therepy, operations and social blah but must also dress and act as a "woman" to earn acceptance. This is why the community in general utilisies the "Trans Gender" and "Gender Non Comforming" nonmenclature.

Trans sexuals are themselves divisive in the anti trans gender scene as some hardliners believe in the "doth tho bleed" or "uterus of GTFO" line or reasoning based in natal womanhood (manhood too? IDK maybe in theory) while others simply demand an adherence to a rigid binary and the rights to know whats in the pants of others, thus allowing post op women into the collective womanhood.

I'm sure someone is going to complain about me summing a complex thing into a couple paragraphs but this is the gist of it and I really don't care to carry on the barny.

So yeah, WPUK do have some trans speakers, but like most of these things, it's a little bit more complecated than that ;p

 

[Athos]

Truscum

Nice.

 

[RTWL]

I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene

I will break it down .

Pseudo anarchist - somebody who claims to be an anarchist and is in fact not.... could be lunching out the consensus, forgetting about free speech, and what's all this safe-space nonsense about?

Authoritarian - several kangaroo courts I have seen .... and there is always a cocky assurance that they are following some protocol (wot they got off crimethink) which gives them authority. Travesties of justice I saw them commit ... and the consensus was lacking to say the least. I have also noticed a lot of power hungry in this group which generally leads to an uncomfortable level of competition and lack of solidarity.

Neo-liberal - Concerned only about LGBT, race issues, and idPOL ... the war and the poor can jog on. Possibly a result of the internalization of the neo-liberal state.

HTH

 

[RTWL]

Truscum
(slang, usually derogatory) A person (often transgender) who adheres to a narrow definition of transgenderism/transsexuality and believes that gender dysphoria is an essential trait.

No mention of militant oppression of other trans people . Why are they scum ? As far as I can see they just have different beliefs to you .... so you attack them .

 

[Red Sky]

I hope that, in addition to arguing pedantically about The Definition Of What Is A Woman, and who will or will not be welcome at the Bookfair which isn't happening, the men on this thread are also engaging with their local Corvid 19 mutual aid groups.

Yep. There's a rather inactive thread on it over in the Coronavirus section.

 

[Larry Noppius]

think maybe for a moment, we actually know what we're talking about.

Says the guy who played biology teacher, proclaimed to have solid evidence of extraterrestrial life, and then tried to back up his claim with a paper which contained nothing of the sort and which he could clearly not understand.

 

[Red Sky]

They are universally know as Transmed / Truscum by others.

Quite a revealing sentence this.

 

[Larry Noppius]

I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene on a thread which numerous times has had outright transphobia and a scary tolerance for dogwhistles and bigotted talking points that too few of the U75 community seem keen to counter act.

Could you give some examples of this "outright transphobia" on this thread? As for the "tolerance for dogwhistles" I'm assuming you're referring to the reason for the exclusion of HS, ie defining the term woman in context of your claim that "transwomen are women"? Are you calling it a "dogwhistle" because you know it trivially refutes your claim? Indeed, the only way for you to not inescapably reach the conclusion that the moon is made of cheese is to use a different definition of the term woman.

Hopefully not going to come back for this talking point again, I'm a busy cat. If you want to learn more about why so many people are calling some of y'all pals bigots and why the science and social reality is on the side of the trans folk, here is some further reading Help! I’ve been called a transphobe! | Reading List – Organise Magazine

Dude you're a crackpot, even if the science were on your side (interesting how you again substitute "trans folk" in general for your claims) you'd still be the least trustworthy person in deciding it to be so.

 

[Larry Noppius]

Quite a revealing sentence this.

Why? Because of the name calling or because of the claim to universality?