Athos
Well-Known Member
What a surprise.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
I have engaged in this debate at considerable length with many posters on here that disagree with me and will continue to do so. I've also come to the conclusion that some people are disengenuous arseholes who aren't really interested in moving the debate forward and just want to find various different ways of sniping at trans people. You fall into the latter group by the way, which is why I don't bother with your shit anymore either.
Athos
Well-Known Member
What a surprise.
FFS! Are you not oversimplifying things smokedout . And I know you are probably sick to death of hearing it but there are shades of grey here .... myself ... i am concerned about post-modern over intellectualized politics negatively affecting anarchist stuff. And I am hazarding a guess that Athos is not a transphobe !
You really think it don't you. That I don't engage with you because you are mr logic super brain who makes the killer points I'm just too scared to handle. Rather than the truth which is that I just think you're a dick. You fucking dick.
Glad to see the bookfair back.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I don't think I'm Mr Logic Super Brain, no.
But I do know that, typically, the point you say you're ignoring me and/or resorting to abuse is when there's a point you can't rebut or I've pointed out one of your many lies.
But you keep pretending if it makes you happy, mate.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
But they're so rough and straight-talking. Like gods.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
"Discussions" like this one certainly make that appealing
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
This whole discussion is going nowhere. I expect everybody else has noticed this as well. It all comes down to this. One lot of people think the new trans ideology is a settled fact. Another lot don’t. (Plus a few other intermediate views as well, i’m sure). As i’ve said before, this issue is not unique to the anarchist movement, nor is it intrinsic to anarchism.
The Bookfair will go ahead, probably. Some people or groups may not attend, which may or may not be noticed. Hopefully there will not be any trouble related to all this. But the movement has been diminished and harmed. Personal relationships have been damaged and reputations tarnished.
None of this will get any better unless there is free and unfettered discussion, and that doesn’t seem likely at the moment.
Years ago there was, briefly, a magazine called ‘Black and Red Outlook’. If it came out now it would have to be called ‘Black and White Outlooks’. Sad or what?
The Bookfair will go ahead, probably. Some people or groups may not attend, which may or may not be noticed. Hopefully there will not be any trouble related to all this. But the movement has been diminished and harmed. Personal relationships have been damaged and reputations tarnished.
None of this will get any better unless there is free and unfettered discussion, and that doesn’t seem likely at the moment.
Years ago there was, briefly, a magazine called ‘Black and Red Outlook’. If it came out now it would have to be called ‘Black and White Outlooks’. Sad or what?
What if people were to think what does this argument stand for/ represent symbolically? It gets in the way of people working together because.....? Arguing only about the rational and logical politics side of things doesn't get very far does it? Why this, why now?
In my workplace right now, there's a fantasy that when the 'difficult person' leaves everything will be ok rather than looking at what the 'difficult person' represents for a team that is stuck and unable to work with eachother creatively, instead each person just getting on with their own thing.
In my workplace right now, there's a fantasy that when the 'difficult person' leaves everything will be ok rather than looking at what the 'difficult person' represents for a team that is stuck and unable to work with eachother creatively, instead each person just getting on with their own thing.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
don't suppose any trans ideology settled at all, being as it's such a new thing
EDIT /; Apologies... complete wrong end of stick.
It would be pretty insulting to a lot of people to say that this is all about transgender politics. It is about the way all this is managed, the false authority and exploitation of it and the lack of respect to established movers and shakers. The people preaching post-modern idpol I have found to be extremely destructive to the goal of a revolution ASAP.
I have seen false rape accusations . I have seen people removed from protest sites/squats for having dreads. I have seen false transphobe accusations(on this very page.... which is a crime BTW). I have seen id-pol nutters target established anarchists (not HS) and shoot them down IMO to further their own status. And most of all it excludes and demonizes the majority of the working class. BTW i am talking REAL LIFE . Not corporate controlled twitter and Facebook... or here.
It would be pretty insulting to a lot of people to say that this is all about transgender politics. It is about the way all this is managed, the false authority and exploitation of it and the lack of respect to established movers and shakers. The people preaching post-modern idpol I have found to be extremely destructive to the goal of a revolution ASAP.
I have seen false rape accusations . I have seen people removed from protest sites/squats for having dreads. I have seen false transphobe accusations(on this very page.... which is a crime BTW). I have seen id-pol nutters target established anarchists (not HS) and shoot them down IMO to further their own status. And most of all it excludes and demonizes the majority of the working class. BTW i am talking REAL LIFE . Not corporate controlled twitter and Facebook... or here.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
your own post excludes the majority of the working class, with your post-modern idpol and so on
... well there are a number of things at play here. The IDPOL stuff mainly effected the politics of university students and twitter junkies, for the working class I think the authoritarianism comes from a backlash against uncontrolled hedonism and the damaged caused by it within Anarchist circles. It is an understandable reaction to my generation lunching it out a bit.
And of course you do actually have genuine transphobes and abusive types, which is a massive problem.
And of course you do actually have genuine transphobes and abusive types, which is a massive problem.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps you could shed some light on how 'the idpol stuff' mainly affected 'the politics of university students and twitter junkies' but not, it seems, the politics of academics or facebook users.
as for uncontrolled hedonism, it's sadly conspicuous by its absence in anarchist circles.
ska invita
back on the other side
The 2020 Anarchist Bookfairs List - Freedom News
With the recent announcements of dates for Liverpool and the Anti-University, our list of anarchist and radical bookfairs across Britain and Ireland is getting pretty full of events – including Bookfair 2020, the first anarchist showing of its kind in London for three years. It’s looking like a...
freedomnews.org.uk
Sorry, my understanding is that a university student was an academic, but yes the whole of society has been effected by neo-liberalism, which id-pol does not conflict with, and therefore is more prominent within the common sympathy... which affects anarchist circles .
And the hedonism - it is sadly conspicuous because of the straight-edge vein, which was a working class reaction to .... well ... a little to much hedonism. I did notice straight-edge and id-pol co-habiting :/
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
my understanding is that pupils are not teachers. your understanding of classroom dynamics may vary.
How do you know that? I wouldn't imagine him being like that.
Still laughing though... Turns out that Anne Fausto-Sterling, the Gender Studies professor whose paper Rhyddical quoted in his ill-advised charade pretending to be a science teacher[*] - has admitted to having made those claims in that paper as merely a joke. No wonder you need to hide yourself behind your MAT Rhyddical, you spineless little coward.
[*] Note in particular the overblown lust for power and authority, not merely arguing for his pseudo-scientific claims but pretending to be a teacher who is spoonfeeding a bunch of students who are expected to uncritically and blindly parrot his claims as a result or have his MAT unleashed upon them. Anarchist my ass.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
It would also be useful if random newbie wankers who seem to have been 'attracted' to this thread, didn't try and misrepresent what people like Fausto-Sterling has to say on these things - in order then to basically have a pop at another poster like @Rhyddical (who seems at least to be trying to make a bookfair happen, even if I don't know him and I have no idea about some of his politics), but moreso - to basically just indulge in some anti-trans bigotry. I see Fausto-Sterling is now getting the pile-ons from those who used to try and use her to have a go at trans people (she's supportive of both intersex and trans people btw - including younger trans people trying to find there way). I expect Finn Mackay will be next for the same reasons.
Some who have seen/engaged in bits of this debate years ago before all the Glinners and Times/Spiked journo's turned up late to it have warned that trans people would only be first in the firing line. And sure enough, it's also sought to undermine intersex and other DSD lives (see treatment of Semenya recently again complete with racial undertones), it aggressively shouts down women and feminists who are allies to trans people, hardliners seek bathroom bills which experience has already shown just affects dyke/butch and trans women going to the loo rather than women at risk of being attacked by men, and now a moral panic is forming around drag being a danger to our kids (the 'gender critical' crowd were once lauding gay men and drag as a means to criticise trans people). Over ten years ago I remember someone to whom I was acquainted (lesbian rad separatist) withdrawing from a lot of this politic at the frustration of a vocal minority of straight rad fems basically going down some homophobic/lesbophobic avenues. Looks like we're here again but on a more public scale.
So as I said in my last post, what a load of selective-memory, two-faced, disingenuous shit some of this is.
Some who have seen/engaged in bits of this debate years ago before all the Glinners and Times/Spiked journo's turned up late to it have warned that trans people would only be first in the firing line. And sure enough, it's also sought to undermine intersex and other DSD lives (see treatment of Semenya recently again complete with racial undertones), it aggressively shouts down women and feminists who are allies to trans people, hardliners seek bathroom bills which experience has already shown just affects dyke/butch and trans women going to the loo rather than women at risk of being attacked by men, and now a moral panic is forming around drag being a danger to our kids (the 'gender critical' crowd were once lauding gay men and drag as a means to criticise trans people). Over ten years ago I remember someone to whom I was acquainted (lesbian rad separatist) withdrawing from a lot of this politic at the frustration of a vocal minority of straight rad fems basically going down some homophobic/lesbophobic avenues. Looks like we're here again but on a more public scale.
So as I said in my last post, what a load of selective-memory, two-faced, disingenuous shit some of this is.
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'Turns out'. She wrote 20 years ago that her paper was intended as a provocation and was tongue in cheek. You don't seem very on top of things given your obvious interest in this subject.
I've been engaging with crackpots and charlatans like Rhydiccal for much longer than this thread, it's been a hobby of mine for a long time, although mostly focused on crackpots in physics rather than biology. Your response and specifically the number of likes it got - given that it is just a contentless whine - clearly shows the deplorable state of that which pretends to be an anarchist movement in the UK. By the way, I'm still waiting for that solid evidence of extraterrestrial life that we were promised - or is this just going to get me another contentless whine that demanding evidence for the claim of extraterrestrial life is supposedly "anti-trans bigotry" or whatever random excuse for charlatanism you choose to employ this time? That people here are trying to hide behind transgender people to deflect the flak their charlatanism was obviously going to receive is appalling, it's one level of cowardice to hide behind some goons when one's crackpot claims get challenged, it's quite another to randomly push some transgender people into the firing line to hide behind.
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Well maybe you should tell Rhydiccal that then, he's the one who seriously went along with it. But yes, thank you for pointing out that my intellectual standards are still sufficiently trustworthy, given that I rejected the claim even before I knew it was a joke and without having an expertise in biology.
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