London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[Rhyddical]

So do I.....

I have made up nothing, I think there was a post where I got confused and three coments down corrected myself and (was it here) where someone commented I replied and when I looked back they'd deleted it? There are a great many comments on this thread accusing us and our position on Trans solidarity as liberalism and/or IDPOL.... IDK maybe you have certain people hidden? Further, you seem to contest my extrapolated meaning from what people said re; the reaction to our blog post where we mearly comment that we will be making a move towards embracing our black comrades in a more robust manner, in which people said "this sounds like IdPol".... I DID NOT qoute people, but made a short hand elusion to these accusation of IDPOL and the problem that faces for the revolutionary working Class Anarchist movement.

They said... Oh a post about black people coming, this sounds like Idpol and not have that taken as if you are saying making space for the black community isn't harmful to the revolutionary anarchist movement (as that is what Idpol is)

Without point out the bit in the post that sounds like IDPOL, what am I supposed to conclude? The block post literally says nothing remotely IDPOL. The only bit some drew out was "Goldsmiths... sounds like IDPOL".... Goldsmiths notably a very diverse group of young organisers...

So it seems to me the claim is, having young people of colour from goldsmiths partake in organising is us leaning towards IdPol and therefore harmful to Anarchism etc etc.

I've said this to you a few times now, I hope you can understand why this isn't "misqouting" or even "mischaracterisation", it's putting two and two together and getting a dogwhistle.

I will not be baited into highlighting specific people and comments for review, if I've "lost" you because of it. Er ok... I didn't know you existed until three days ago and you've done nothing but have a go at me on a personal level instead of conversing about bookfair. we're cool homie x



Chilango; Sorry I don't know how to do the multiple replies!
I think the Bookfair had no choice but to enter into the dispute to be honest. It was going to crop up when ever someone held the next Anarchist Bookfair in London and if we need to take the flack so that the next lot have an easier time of it then so be. I think we're given a pretty robust definition of Transphobia in our safer spaces policy and I recall giving a very definitive one here when I was badgered to do so during all that "heat".

This concern of it becoming a "idpol performative battle" is one we take seriously, and if I'm honest I expect we'll piss of comrades who lean towards IDPOL or the extremes of TRA just as much ( as wee seem to do those with perhaps more acceptance of what I'd label transphobia ) by not diving into that pit of liberalism and retaining our Anarchist Communist tone and message. I personally fucking HATE the "Terf Wars" and I have zero personal interest in getting involved in that previously , somewhat forced to by organising the Bookfair ;( Agree with you that it is very alienating too! Mind you the thing that hits home there for me personally is this note about tone, atmosphere and culture and I think that is where a lot of the concerns (outside of the aggy Idpol drama) stem from.

The organisers are all Anarchists, we're a diverse bunch with differance personal and organisational tendancies and aethetics and some of us are well experianced in the movement. We know who we are and we know who want want along. We discussed being a Radical bookfair and having a broader invitiational base, honestly we did. We concluded that it would be better and more honest to have a distinctly Anarchist bookfair (with grey borders), with all of it's drive and unity of tone and message. I believe making more space for somewhat apolitical local groups is part of this, what isn't is fill then space with popularist marxism and Labour shite, which I think, some of the folk here are picturing. TBh I'm not sure there will be anyone there who wouldn't have been at the LABC, or that wouldn't have been welcome and I'm 90% sure people will turn up and go "ah thank fuck" and leave saying "fair enough...That rhyddicals makes up qoutes tho the bastard!" ;p

However that is my perspective, part of the reason I'm still on here is for the genuine imput and suggestions on how we can ensure we live up the the fantastic legacy we are adopting and ensure it's a Bookfair worthy of the name.

 

[redsquirrel]

I have made up nothing, I think there was a post where I got confused and three coments down corrected myself and (was it here) where someone commented I replied and when I looked back they'd deleted it?

Lets be absolutely clear on this. Are you contending that when you claimed

Somewhere in the early commentary there was something or other about "men who cut their dicks off",

That you did not invent a quote but rather this was an accurate claim and the reason is cannot be found on the thread is because the (unnamed) poster who made such a quote had edited their post and deleted it?

 

[Rhyddical]

Can't find the original commentor now, but I wen't looking with interest about The Dangerous Spaces Policy. Which they wrote "The Dangerous Space Policy was intended to create the conditions for anarchy. No one was banned, asked to behave or scolded by any organizer. Each individual acted according to their will and desire, accepting the consequences of their actions. People took conflict resolution into their own hands. Almost everyone was armed. "

That is copy and pasted from Green Scare Anarchist Bookfair 2020 Invitation Flyer PDF

A recent Anarcho Primitivist bookfair in the US, It seems they are Nihilist and Individualists also.

"Civilization is collapsing and we welcome it prepared with knives, guns, and whatever else "

They make a big point about having no rules and then state "This is a sober event"

It's probably worth noting as well that according to a comrade from Black Rose Anarchist Federation, the kind of internal split we had at 2017, is not anything they have in the US. It's not a context they have that splits the movement.


Just to be clear, this isn't what Bookfair 2020 will be like. self indulgent Staight edge primo shite.

We're about the community, and if you kick off at someone, nick shit expecting other to "defend themself coz Anarchy" you will be kicked out (and the rest).

There will also be booze from mid afternoon and several after parties.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sorry is the above in response to my post?

 

[butchersapron]

This stuff came straight from the US anarchist scene. The crimethinc smack the white boy stuff was 2009. And that stuff has never stopped over any issue since - never mind it not being something they have to deal with.

 

[Pickman's model]

There will also be booze from mid afternoon and several after parties.

i suppose that the appropriate license will be applied for and that, now it's been advertised in public.

 

[Rhyddical]

i suppose that the appropriate license will be applied for and that, now it's been advertised in public.

No worries, already sorted... Well atleast venue side. The afterparties are mostly autonomously organised as per tradition.

 

[Rhyddical]

Should maybe repeat this (Which I wrote in response to a comment on page 17 or something haha thinking it was current)

We have zero interest in entertaining the debate that begin at denying the existance and basic rights of others.

Organisations and individuals who promote bigotted politics will not be given a stall or workshop.
People sharing bigot lit. will be asked to leave.
People who are well known for sharing bigotted media will be asked to leave.
People with a history of causing disturbances in bad faith will be asked to leave.

Specifically regarding Transphobia, Bigotry includes the political idea that trans women are not women and that the legal policies of the state should reflect this.

We will not play a symantical "it's not really racist/transphobic/homophobic" game with bigots and judgement calls will be made by the volunteers present.

I personally find the notion of Anarchist demanding a "defined codified rule set" a bit counter intuitive.

This is not a "radical bookfair" but an Anarchist one and we do not care for wet passivity or entertaining bigorty in any manner.

These people are a direct threat to the safeety and security of vunerable members of the community.

We will not be providing a platform or making space for people who deny the existance and rights of vunerable members of the anarchist community.

While I agree that there is a need "to win people over", have the Anarchist debate and such, Bookfair 2020 isn't the place.

If another group (you perhaps!) wishes to set up a fringe event on the same day to provide such a platform for discussion you are more than welcome and we would include it in our list of associated events, however this is not something we can entertain at the main event.

This is why your local Brexit MP wont be along, neither will the SWP, Tankie Brigade or Women's Place.

Whether or not you agree with it, think it is Anarchist, fascist, anti-women, Transmafioso etc etc do you understand that position? I mean we've been here before and I hope this is quite clear.

 

[Athos]

Bigotry includes the political idea that trans women are not women...

This is the very heart of it.

Regardless of whether you or I believe that trans women are not women, what makes such an opinion bigoted? How are you defining bigotry, that it necessarily includes all such views?

It's something you should address because, in essence, your position is that anyone who doesn't share your belief is a bigot and, by implication, not an anarchist, and that's what justifies you exercising power to exclude them from an anarchist event.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If Rhyddical and the other bookfair organisers think that calling those who disagree with the new trans-activism all bigots and transphobes is a productive and positive approach, then they are woefully mistaken. To deny the assertion ‘transwomen are women’ does not make anyone bigoted or phobic. If those who support the proposition are so certain of their viewpoint they need to argue, debate and justify it. After all, it flies in the face of common sense, of hitherto accepted theories of biology etc. Concern for the potentially hurt feelings of some trans people should not have to trump concern for the rights of women to express themselves freely. This issue will run and run and affects all of society, as well as Labour, Liberals, SNP, Green Party, gay and lesbian groups, trades unions etc. Your pretence that there is anything like consensus among anarchists is just plain wrong, and by alienating those gender-critical feminists all you are doing is dividing and weakening the movement further. There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices. The anarchist movement in this country is small and pretty insignificant, but recent London book fairs have demonstrated its potential for growth. To demand silence or compliance on a major current controversial topic in left wing politics smacks of authoritarianism, mind control and doublethink.

 

[Pickman's model]

If Rhyddical and the other bookfair organisers think that calling those who disagree with the new trans-activism all bigots and transphobes is a productive and positive approach, then they are woefully mistaken. To deny the assertion ‘transwomen are women’ does not make anyone bigoted or phobic. If those who support the proposition are so certain of their viewpoint they need to argue, debate and justify it. After all, it flies in the face of common sense, of hitherto accepted theories of biology etc. Concern for the potentially hurt feelings of some trans people should not have to trump concern for the rights of women to express themselves freely. This issue will run and run and affects all of society, as well as Labour, Liberals, SNP, Green Party, gay and lesbian groups, trades unions etc. Your pretence that there is anything like consensus among anarchists is just plain wrong, and by alienating those gender-critical feminists all you are doing is dividing and weakening the movement further. There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices. The anarchist movement in this country is small and pretty insignificant, but recent London book fairs have demonstrated its potential for growth. To demand silence or compliance on a major current controversial topic in left wing politics smacks of authoritarianism, mind control and doublethink.

There's one significant omission from your list of groups this divisive issue has affected, and that's the party which introduced the topic to its current level via the consultation they announced, namely the tory party. If I wanted to inject an issue which would turn friends against each other and cause internecine strife in radical politics I could not have come up with something better than this. All common sense has flown out of the window, all solidarity shattered. It's very disappointing to see comrades fall out over something like this instead of their working together in a spirit of amity

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

There's one significant omission from your list of groups this divisive issue has affected, and that's the party which introduced the topic to its current level via the consultation they announced, namely the tory party. If I wanted to inject an issue which would turn friends against each other and cause internecine strife in radical politics I could not have come up with something better than this. All common sense has flown out of the window, all solidarity shattered. It's very disappointing to see comrades fall out over something like this instead of their working together in a spirit of amity

I agree with you. Whatever else it is this issue is not central to anarchism. Bakunin and Kropotkin didn’t know anything about it, nor the CNT or FAI in Spain, nor Provo in Amsterdam, nor anyone at all until very recently. Outside of woke politics hardly anybody out there is even aware of what’s going on, but with more controversy about transwomen in women’s sport I suspect that a bit more common sense will start to prevail. I just hope that if/when a backlash happens the baby (trans-rights) isn’t thrown out with the bath water (conformity to an intellectually vacuous ideology)

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree with you. Whatever else it is this issue is not central to anarchism. Bakunin and Kropotkin didn’t know anything about it, nor the CNT or FAI in Spain, nor Provo in Amsterdam, nor anyone at all until very recently. Outside of woke politics hardly anybody out there is even aware of what’s going on, but with more controversy about transwomen in women’s sport I suspect that a bit more common sense will start to prevail. I just hope that if/when a backlash happens the baby (trans-rights) isn’t thrown out with the bath water (conformity to an intellectually vacuous ideology)

It's amazing how concerned people who formerly showed no interest in sports have become so exercised about transwomen's participation.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It's amazing how concerned people who formerly showed no interest in sports have become so exercised about transwomen's participation.

Yeah, I know. But loads more people are bothered about sport than they are about other things. Which is why they see the ridiculousness of simple mantras such as ‘trans-women’ when applied to women’s sport. When ideology conflicts with everyday reality will be when the crunch comes (maybe).

 

[LDC]

Edited. Can't be arsed.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Edited. Can't be arsed.

same tbf

 

[Pickman's model]

Given the diverse range of opinions held by people who attend the Bookfair, opinions which the organisers haven't attempted to police in the past (eg af, cw, solfed, awg) what I'd be looking for ideally from a Bookfair collective would be them rising above divisive topics rather than adopting partisan positions, and doing the task at hand - namely organising a Bookfair and not running it. And what I'd like to see from people attending the event is an ability not to use the day to show just how poorly they can behave. There's nothing edifying about calling people ugly terfs, nicking and burning Bookfair banners, or distributing a wholly unanarchist leaflet calling for engagement with a government consultation with a view to provoking unhappiness.

 

[charlie mowbray]

AWG? That's a long time ago.

 

[Pickman's model]

AWG? That's a long time ago.

In the dim and distant past, then! Only time I remember seeing them was at the cw international conference

 

[Serge Forward]

The AWG were shite. Most of their movers and shakers ended up in RCP/LM/Spiked/IOI.

 

[Pickman's model]

The AWG were shite. Most of their movers and shakers ended up in RCP/LM/IOI.

Yeh I remember the disdain in which they were held

 

[Serge Forward]

You'll notice I just had to edit my own post there - compare with your quote. Bugger, it's very easy to mix up the two initials

 

[Pickman's model]

You'll notice I just had to edit my own post there - compare with your quote. Bugger, it's very easy to mix up the two initials

 

[Jennastan]

Yeah, I know. But loads more people are bothered about sport than they are about other things. Which is why they see the ridiculousness of simple mantras such as ‘trans-women’ when applied to women’s sport. When ideology conflicts with everyday reality will be when the crunch comes (maybe).

trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?

I’m not opposing any human rights to anything. But many women object that trans women who have grown up male are allowed to compete against them as if there were no physical difference. Which there obviously is. My difference of opinion with you on this one issue has no bearing on anarchism whatsoever.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?

No idea why what you replied to came up as being in response to me. I’m not here much lately and that account isn’t linked to me at all. Is there an issue with the software?
Take it up with the mods. I couldn’t care less.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Or whatever.

 

[Athos]

trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?

There is no universal right to access to female sport.

 

[Pickman's model]

trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?

Elite sport? What, polo or real tennis, that sort of thing?

 

[Rob Ray]

There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices.

The only possible way you could say this with a straight face is if you have spent no time whatsoever listening to trans people talk about their experiences or paying attention to the way they've been publicly approached and treated time and again on social media and in person.

On which note I'll probably be back whenever this round of "why can't people just accept my right to upset, misrepresent and harass trans people" has run its course.