London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[Rob Ray]

It's interesting (to me at least) to note the parallels between the issues of alleged transphobia in the Anarchist movement and alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue of definition is central.

They're not similar circumstances. For a start, the Labour party is being deliberately hammered by the press over anti-Semitism while for transphobia it's the other way round, with pro-trans groups like Mermaids and Stonewall regularly being monstered.

Also if this turns into another fucking "I have the right to say X about trans people and not be told off" debate I'm gonna be off again for a while I think, it's so utterly tedious.

 

[Athos]

I was always interested in anarchism, and seriously thought about going to some events to learn more (I read a couple of big names, Chomsky etc ad really liked what they had to say, but if this is what it is in reality then I think I'll stick with the tankies

From the way this thread went, Anarchy sounds like a movement for bearded hipster wankers. Either that, that or its being captured by pomo nobs.

Either way. Anarchists actually scare quite bit now. More than any other leftist group and tbh I can't think of anything more unappealing than being surrounded by a bunch of breying angry anarchists dudes. Mud sticks and bones take time to heal.

Fuck this bookfair.

You can't sensibly judge a political philosophy by an online spat amongst a tiny number of people, about one event in one place at one time!

Yes, there's plenty of both those types, and an increasing battle for the soul of the movement (which, in my opinion the right side is losing). But, there's still lots of sound comrades, and valuable activity. And the ideas are interesting and relevant.

And the tankies have some pretty dark shit of their own!

 

[chilango]

They're not similar circumstances. For a start, the Labour party is being deliberately hammered by the press over anti-Semitism while for transphosphorylation it's the other way round, with pro-trans groups like Mermaids and Stonewall regularly being monstered.

Also if this turns into another fucking "I have the right to say X about trans people and not be told off" debate I'm gonna be off again for a while I think, it's so utterly tedious.

Is that to me?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

You can't sensibly judge a political philosophy by an online spat amongst a tiny number of people, about one event in one place at one time!

You say that, but I think the problem for all of us is that times are changing. The majority of political communication, whether we like it or not *is* done online.

There may still be offline groups doing work, but it seems to me that the way political discourse is being handled is spilling over into the real world and affecting the way we organise ourselves.

It has a massive impact and its time to acknowledge it. Its HOW we take things offline that's going to really matter. It ain't looking good is it?


And edit:

Let me reiterate, I am *genuinely* afraid of being beaten if I were to turn up to look around atan anarchist bookfair. And it's not because of what people from other factions have been saying. It's because I've been seeing what's been happening online spilling offline. I would go absolutely nowhere near this bookfair or anything anarchist tbf.

Some might want to shoot the messenger.

 

[Athos]

It's interesting (to me at least) to note the parallels between the issues of alleged transphobia in the Anarchist movement and alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue of definition is central.

My suspicion is that there's a small amount of truth in both (i.e. that a very few labour members are antisemites, and a few purported anarchists are transphobes), but that, in both cases, that's deliberately and cynically exaggerated and weaponised by those who seek to dominate the movement.

 

[Rob Ray]

anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot. And if you think it's a case of "disengenouousness", then that's gonna be a problem of your movement, eh.

I know what my and others thoughts are. Up to you to acknowledge them or dismiss them. Not my problem, really.

If you're making comparisons to the tankies, people who outright suck up to the Chinese Communist Party, make excuses for the likes of North Korea and have repeatedly backed Assad on some sort of anti-imperial realpolitik kick (let alone their domestic bullshit like backing Steve Hedley or giving space to Galloway for years knowing what a shitbreak he is) and end up saying anarchism is "the most unpleasant of the lot" because we're in the midst of a collective online argument then yeah, I'm going to call that disingenuous bullshit. You've been around for long enough to know better, I'm not going to sit here and try to persuade you of that.

Edit: Also you're not going to get beaten up at a bookfair, get over yourself. The organisers have been quite clear, if you started actively leafletting bigoted crap you'd simply be asked to leave, same as if you did so about any minority group. No-one's going to start flinging punches at random passers-by browsing books.

 

[Athos]

You say that, but I think the problem for all of us is that times are changing. The majority of political communication, whether we like it or not *is* done online.

There may still be offline groups doing work, but it seems to me that the way political discourse is being handled is spilling over into the real world and affecting the way we organise ourselves.

It has a massive impact and its time to acknowledge it. Its HOW we take things offline that's going to really matter. It ain't looking good is it?

That's true enough. But I don't think the polarising effect of online discourse is particular to (or even most acute in) anarchist discussion. But, yes, it does concern me how this spills over into real life.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

My suspicion is that there's a small amount of truth in both (i.e. that a very few labour members are antisemites, and a few purported anarchists are transphobes), but that, in both cases, that's deliberately and cynically exaggerated and weaponised by those who seek to dominate the movement.

That's the nub of it.

 

[Athos]

Let me reiterate, I am *genuinely* afraid of being beaten if I were to turn up to look around atan anarchist bookfair. And it's not because of what people from other factions have been saying. It's because I've been seeing what's been happening online spilling offline. I would go absolutely nowhere near this bookfair or anything anarchist tbf.

Really? Beaten by whom? Why?

 

[Pickman's model]

Let me reiterate, I am *genuinely* afraid of being beaten if I were to turn up to look around atan anarchist bookfair. And it's not because of what people from other factions have been saying. It's because I've been seeing what's been happening online spilling offline. I would go absolutely nowhere near this bookfair or anything anarchist tbf.

Some might want to shoot the messenger.

tbh i would be absolutely astonished if you received anything more than a harsh look. how many people have you heard of being beaten at anarchist events? sure there's been the occasional encounters - i don't want to dignify them with the term scuffles - when there've been beefs between people. and of course there've been fascists vigorously removed. but any anticipation that you'd be assaulted seems to be a great misreading of the risk situation.

 

[butchersapron]

At great length.

 

[chilango]

No, FabricLiveBaby! you won't get beaten up at the Anarchist Bookfair.

...but I do, genuinely, think there's work to be done on making them more inclusive and welcoming.

Up thread we talked a little about making them more family friendly.

But there's other general aspects to think about too.

The last one I went to (2015? 2016?) I found quite "intimidating". It was busy, crowded, and, as a lone visitor, this coupled with dominance of young counter-cultural types meant thst I felt pretty excluded and found it really hard to actually chat to anyone at the stalls.

The meetings, however, were much better in these regards.

 

[sunnysidedown]

They do things differently at US bookfairs.

The Dangerous Space Policy was intended to create the conditions for anarchy. No one was banned, asked to behave or scolded by any organizer. Each individual acted according to their will and desire, accepting the consequences of their actions. People took conflict resolution into their own hands. Almost everyone was armed.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in response. It started pissing down with rain so I've legged it home. Got my laptop now so hopefully I can give a proper typo free response that I don't have to edit after posting.

Really? Beaten by whom? Why?

there've been beefs between people and of course there've been fascists vigorously removed but any anticipation that you'd be assaulted seems to be a great misreading of the risk situation.

Ok, so yes really. By whom? Obviously I can't name any individuals because I don't know any but I'd say it doesn't really matter that I don't know. There are people on here that remember stuff said from years back (ney, even keep notes - weirdos- I'm told), there are online groups actively trying to doxx people on line ALL THE TIME. All it would take is someone to recognise me from here, twitter, Facebook groups or whatever to start accusations going. Now, I've never attended any terven meetings, never given money, never got money - I'm scary woman with online opinions. But that is, and has been, enough.

I've seen online discourse from anarchists on here. Lumping in scary terven thought with fascism. I've seen it here on Urban - accusations of funding by the far right. Accusations of right wing allies, and thus the insinuation being by extension anyone who agrees or sympathises or even has an understanding of the viewpoint is in bed with the religious right. Online anarchists banging on about how TERFS are NAZIS (type it into twitter for god's sake) and how TERFS get the boot. It's OK To punch NAZIs and it's OK to punch TERFs (or anyone accused of being one).

So someone clocks me, accuses me of TERFery, and thus Fascism. Game on. Get the fash. Fash get the boot.

Maybe it's hyperbole. But we have seen women punched offline after such statements have been made.

And women keep ourselves safe first. We know men won't do it. We don't trust men to do it. And we don't trust men to take it seriously. I certainly don't trust the organiser of this bookfair to do it who happily partakes in similar smear campaigns and I ain't even an Anarchist.

No WAY would I step foot in there. No amount of promises that it won't happen would tempt me. Not after what I read here and elsewhere. No way. Women are risk averse and we have to be.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in response. It started pissing down with rain so I've legged it home. Got my laptop now so hopefully I can give a proper typo free response that I don't have to edit after posting.






Ok, so yes really. By whom?

by people who know and hate each other offline, anarchists who have personal disputes

Obviously I can't name any individuals because I don't know any but I'd say it doesn't really matter that I don't know. There are people on here that remember stuff said from years back (ney, even keep notes - weirdos- I'm told), there are online groups actively trying to doxx people on line ALL THE TIME. All it would take is someone to recognise me from here, twitter, Facebook groups or whatever to start accusations going. Now, I've never attended any terven meetings, never given money, never got money - I'm scary woman with online opinions. But that is, and has been, enough.

I've seen online discourse from anarchists on here. Lumping in scary terven thought with fascism. I've seen it here on Urban - accusations of funding by the far right. Accusations of right wing allies, and thus the insinuation being by extension anyone who agrees or sympathises or even has an understanding of the viewpoint is in bed with the religious right. Online anarchists banging on about how TERFS are NAZIS (type it into twitter for god's sake) and how TERFS get the boot. It's OK To punch NAZIs and it's OK to punch TERFs (or anyone accused of being one).

So someone clocks me, accuses me of TERFery, and thus Fascism. Game on. Get the fash. Fash get the boot.

Maybe it's hyperbole. But we have seen women punched offline after such statements have been made.

And women keep ourselves safe first. We know men won't do it. We don't trust men to do it. And we don't trust men to take it seriously. I certainly don't trust the organiser of this bookfair to do it who happily partakes in similar smear campaigns and I ain't even an Anarchist.

No WAY would I step foot in there. No amount of promises that it won't happen would tempt me. Not after what I read here and elsewhere. No way. Women are risk averse and we have to be.

if you're not an anarchist, and tbh you don't seem anarcho-curious, i don't see why you'd really want to come to the bookfair.

your 'accusation of terfery' > 'accusations of fascism' > getting beaten up really doesn't ring true.

i ask again: how many people have you heard of being beaten at anarchist events?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

by people who know and hate each other offline, anarchists who have personal disputes
if you're not an anarchist, and tbh you don't seem anarcho-curious, i don't see why you'd really want to come to the bookfair.

Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago? I said that I'd been curious about it in a previous post and had been interested in going before.

The rest is just the Pickmans's game of catch the weasel. Not interested (edit: in playing your game).

I've said how I feel about it, why I feel the way I do about it. The fact that it doesn't ring true to you is moot. Accusations of terfery do lead to accusations of fascism. And we know that fascists are fair game. The fact that it hasn't happened before doesn't mean that it *won't* happen. I'm risk averse like most women. I'm not going to put myself in line to be the first. I doubt many like me will.

 

[Pickman's model]

Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago? I said that I'd been curious about it in a previous post and had been interested in going before.

The rest is just the Pickmans's game of catch the weasel. Not interested. I've said how I feel about it, why I feel the way I do about it. The fact that it doesn't ring true to you is moot. Accusations of terfery do lead to accusations of fascism. And we know that fascists are fair game. The fact that it hasn't happened before doesn't mean that it *won't* happen. I'm risk averse like most women. I'm not going to put myself in line to be the first. I doubt many like me will.

so on the basis of er no fucking evidence whatsoever you think you'd get beaten at an event you say you were curious about in the past but - from everything you've posted - are no longer interested in. btw you made up that doesn't ring true bit.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

are no longer interested in. btw you made up

For clarification, I'm not interested in playing your ridiculous game. I edited my post for clarity.

 

[Pickman's model]

For clarification, I'm not interested in playing your ridiculous game. I edited my post for clarity.

the only ridiculous game going on here is your insistence that being beaten at the anarchist bookfair is a realistic concern. sure, there've been disagreements between people who knew each other. but i can't think of an instance where someone was beaten, be they anarchist or fascist. the occasional punch has been thrown between people who already knew and disliked each other. but tbh i don't suppose your absence will be greatly missed.

e2a: sorry, you were right about the ring true bit but it's still a load of bollocks as the getting beaten thing just doesn't happen like that, like some sort of hue and cry like catch the fascist because people want some sort of confirmation before they batter someone silly.

 

[Rob Ray]

I've seen online discourse from anarchists on here. Lumping in scary terven thought with fascism. I've seen it here on Urban - accusations of funding by the far right.

Ooh I really don't like that sort of tactic, where you take chatter on Urban around the exposure of well-known links between prominent terf groups and elements of the Christian and Far Right over trans rights and act as though highlighting these talking points is the same thing as labelling everyone with an opinion as paid-up fascists and therefore you feel personally at risk because you reckon some of your views might be labelled as such. Jumping from real to "scary violent anarchist trans warriors gonna beat up a defenceless woman" in three easy steps. Ugh.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Nice one boys.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice one boys.

it's always grand to see someone pop up, make a claim which doesn't have any actual basis in past experience, and then make out they've been vilely victimised.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

it's always grand to see someone pop up, make a claim which doesn't have any actual basis in past experience, and then make out they've been vilely victimised.

WTF.

I haven't claimed I've been victimised. What I'm doing is claiming the current online debate and the way it is being handled is putting off people like me that would otherwise attend because they fear that the threats may become reality and don't want to test the water.

I know fuck all about anarchism apart from what I see online (as videos, or text). I don't know anyone. AS DO Most. Do you as a movement want people to learn about what you are about or not?

Why would anyone in my position show up when a) The rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary. b) there are threats of violence online for being fash/terf.

Laugh all you want, boys. Laugh it up. Good work. True ambassadors to your cause you are. I'm sure you've made many people who are worried feel much better.

Now watch your movement magically grow and not disintegrate.

 

[Pickman's model]

WTF.

I haven't claimed I've been victimised. What I'm doing is claiming the current online debate and the way it is being handled is putting off people like me that would otherwise attend because they fear that the threats may become reality and don't want to test the water.

I know fuck all about anarchism apart from what I see online. I don't know anyone. AS DO MOST.

Why would anyone in my position show up when a) The rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary. b) there are threats of violence online for being fash/terf.

Laugh all you want, boys. Laugh it up. Good work. I'm sure you've made many people who are worried feel much better.

Now watch your movement magically grow and not disintegrate.

the rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary, she said after making unapologetically smeary posts.

 

[Rob Ray]

You've been on Urban75 (of all places) longer than I have, including on the politics board, are you seriously saying you know fuck all about anarchism and are suddenly being put off it via message board arguing after hanging in there for 15+ years?

Genuinely baffled that you'd take the "casual put off of politics" route here.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

the rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary, she said after making unapologetically smeary posts.

It's not smeary to say that terfs/fash are accused of being similar or one and the same. Would you like me to do a, search for you? Or would you prefer I spam this thread with 100s of images and blogs? I'm not going to, because you have fingers and can search yourself.

My emotional reaction isn't a smear either. I'm just letting you know what that is. You can call it irrational if you like. I'm not sure it is.

Either way, you boys are patently angry about how I perceive things. But that isn't my problem really. If it's no loss to you, then it's no loss to me.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

You've been on Urban75 (of all places) longer than I have, including on the politics board, are you seriously saying you know fuck all about anarchism and are suddenly being put off it via message board arguing after hanging in there for 15+ years?

Genuinely baffled that you'd take the "casual put off of politics" route here.

I don't really post on the politics board much because it's quite aggressive and don't feel I know enough about it (anarchy) to get involved in meaty discussion without being told to fuck off and read a book (fair enough, really) , so, honestly, I haven't really learnt much from Anarchy on Urban apart from that you guys like to insult each other a lot.

Most of my knowledge about Anarchism (and it really isn't much) comes from books/texts/videos.

Seriously.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not smeary to say that terfs/fash are accused of being similar or one and the same. Would you like me to do a, search for you? Or would you prefer I spam this thread with 100s of images and blogs? I'm not going to, because you have fingers and can search yourself.

My emotional reaction isn't a smear either. I'm just letting you know what that is. You can call it irrational if you like. I'm not sure it is.

Either way, you boys are patently angry about how I perceive things. But that isn't my problem really. If it's no loss to you, then it's no loss to me.

the smear i was talking about was your nonsense about being beaten, when you've been unable to produce a single example of such happening.

 

[Rob Ray]

It's entirely smeary to characterise the existence of occasional headbangers as a) representative of "the anarchist movement" b) anything whatsoever to do with how the anarchist bookfair specifically is running its affairs. It's the mirror of if I picked out a handful of the (endless) Twitter threads which get jumped on by terfs calling people rapists, abominations, child mutilators etc and characterised that as representing your views.

And I don't know who you think you're kidding when you say you don't post much, I've seen you around plenty.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't really post on the politics board much because it's quite aggressive and don't feel I know enough about it (anarchy) to get involved in meaty discussion without being told to fuck off and read a book (fair enough, really) , so, honestly, I haven't really learnt much from Anarchy on Urban apart from that you guys like to insult each other a lot.

Most of my knowledge about Anarchism (and it really isn't much) comes from books/texts/videos.

Seriously.

about a quarter of your posts this year have been in politics forums (c.100/c.400)

also you don't need to post to be able to read threads