London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[FabricLiveBaby!]

.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

about a quarter of your posts this year have been in politics forums (c.100/c.400)

also you don't need to post to be able to read threads

Bollocks mate. There are about 700 posts in the political sub forum. That's LESS than 10% of my posts are in politics across the board. Most of those posts are about light (safe) topics like conspiraloonary/Richard dawkins/current affairs.

I only post about shit I know stuff about. And this year's been a stinker for it.

Who you trying to kid?

I post about stuff I've been following online this year so now I'm supposed to have learnt about anarchism over my 15 years on this forum?

Honestly just fuck off with your bad faith nonsense. You see everything I say as something to pick apart and your starting position is that I'm a fucking liar.

Why should I engage with someone who's there to dismiss what I say and pick holes to feel good about himself.

Go enjoy your movement, you sad SAD MAN.

 

[Athos]

FabricLiveBaby! I'd be very surprised if what you fear came to pass. But I completely accept: i) that your fears are sincere; ii) that they are based on your good-faith interpretation of some of what can be observed; and, iii) that there are others who feel the same. And that, in itself, is a problem for the anarchist 'movement.' One that's not ameliorate by blokes telling you you're being ridiculous.

 

[Athos]

FabricLiveBaby! I'd be very surprised if what you fear came to pass. But I completely accept: i) that your fears are sincere; ii) that they are grounded in your good-faith interpretation of what can be observed; and, iii) that there are others who feel the same. And that, in itself, is a problem for the anarchist 'movement.' One that's not ameliorated by blokes telling you you're being ridiculous.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

FabricLiveBaby! I'd be very surprised if what you fear came to pass. But I completely accept: i) that your fears are sincere; ii) that they are grounded in some if what can be observed; and, iii) that there are others who feel the same. And that, in itself, is a problem for the anarchist 'movement.' One that's not ameliorate by blokes telling you you're being ridiculous.

Thank you. I'm out of here now. These guys are too annoying.

 

[Rob Ray]

Sorry you're so angry, all the best with your future endeavours jumping on threads to accuse people of being violent bullies with no evidence and characterising their politics as worse than Stalinism while inaccurately portraying yourself as some sort of terrified political neophyte, which definitely isn't annoying behaviour at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bollocks mate. There are about 700 posts in the political sub forum. That's LESS than 10% of my posts are in politics across the board. Most of those posts are about light (safe) topics like conspiraloonary/Richard dawkins/current affairs.

you have posted 443 times this year. of those 135 posts are in the various politics forums. which is 30.5%, so i was a mite off at 1/4.

I only post about shit I know stuff about.

Who you trying to kid?

Honestly just fuck off with your bad faith nonsense. You see everything I say as something to pick apart and your starting position is that I'm a fucking liar.

Why should I engage with someone who's there to dismiss what I say and pick holes to feel good about himself.

Go enjoy your movement, you sad SAD MAN.

my starting point hasn't been you're a fucking liar. but after looking at the baseless accusations in your posts it shall be from now on.

 

[Rhyddical]

The fact is tho, anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot.

while I have a beard, I'm not particularly angry as a soul ;p

TBH Anarchism is 90% fucking wonderful, with some rainy showers in the more traditionalist vanguard and a very particular cess pool locatin around the South Est that even folk on this thread - however much we disagree - would surely agree it's fucking BS... TBh I'm not even sure the proper transphobes like Bindel n co would even say they are Anarchist IDK.

I think the differances between Anarchism and other similar social movements is that we are deeply passionate and wear our politics upfront.... Unlike Labour and SWP types, we don't hide shit away fromt he public until someone outs us and we're forced to do something, I think it's one of the key things about Anarchism that folk misunderstand, and that is that we actually deal with and (try to) process the bullshit that crops up.... to some folk it probably seems uncivil but 99% of the time it's a really good way to live your life.

I guess it's worth point out as well that Labour, Marxists, etc all have similar dramas but they just call the cops to kick folk out...we're trying to find differant, better solutions, and that can sometimes be a hard discussion.

I'd spend some time in the real world with some anarchos instead of judging an entire political movement by this tiny little online thread mate x

 

[Rhyddical]

They do things differently at US bookfairs.

The Dangerous Space Policy was intended to create the conditions for anarchy. No one was banned, asked to behave or scolded by any organizer. Each individual acted according to their will and desire, accepting the consequences of their actions. People took conflict resolution into their own hands. Almost everyone was armed.

this hasn't been my experiance of american Anarchist bookfairs. Which ones specifically? This sound very Libertarian right / Individualist and would be poision to those without the power of force...

The bookfairs tendancy is Anarchist Communist as an entity and while that isn't try of all attendees our core organising mechanic is to meet the needs of the individual and the community respectively.

fuck the dog eat dog stuff.

 

[Rhyddical]

Re-reading some of that commentary, I feel we should make something clear.

No one is going to get beaten up.

It is a long way off, but this is our pencilled in security system so far.

The primary point of contact and problem solving will be comrades in high vis with conflict resolution skills who will be there in a general capacity to help people navigate the place, find stalls, access the additional support for autistic people etc etc..
We are also having a comradely organisation, primarily composed of women some of whom hold SIA badges and who have experiance in managing crowds as our primary security. This isn'trandom security guards but politically aware and approachable comrades who can handle themselves should any palathra start up.
The venue will also have SIA security with a minimal presence, but available as per their insurance requirements, tho taking over as we go into the evening.

Response to conflict will be swift and focused on calming any possible situation. Whether that stems from fash, transphobic groups, a barny between comrades or someone having a stress. We will be taking a forward approach guidied by comrades with the relative training and experiance.

This will go both ways, anyone randomly accosting someone with violence will get chucked out, whether you think there politics are shite or not, we won't be toleratant of it and will be asking anyone with concerns to contact one of the team and have them deal with a situation.

We will almost certainly have a designated room for those who just need some chill the fuck down time.

So yeah, no one is getting beaten up, neither will we sit idly by and let a situation brew by not intervening. We have a responsibility to all the people who attend and expect that mutual respect to be something we all take onboard.

 

[butchersapron]

One of the more prominent bookfair organisers is currently screenshotting posts from this thread and posting them on facebook - fabriclivebaby is being called 'some terf' in them etc. This is the second lot after doing the same on sunday/monday posts to other posters. So that's good then.

 

[LDC]

Where is that butchersapron I can't see it on the Bookfair 2020 FB page? Ah, maybe you mean their own page?

 

[butchersapron]

Where is that butchersapron I can't see it on the Bookfair 2020 FB page?

It's on their own account i believe.

 

[chilango]

Where is that butchersapron I can't see it on the Bookfair 2020 FB page? Ah, maybe you mean their own page?

Ditto.

 

[ska invita]

Ditto.

It's on one of the (feeling attacked and defensive) organisers personal pages.
But is adding to this now cross platform beef worth it?

No

 

[chilango]

It's on one of the (feeling attacked and defensive) organisers personal pages.
But is adding to this now cross platform beef worth it?

No

Course not.

But it's a bit off having a conversation I'm part of (hopefully in a generally respectful and constructive manner) being screenshotted elsewhere where I can't see what's being said.

*shrugs*

I've no beef with Rhyddical and genuinely want to see the Bookfair return as a success, but that shouldn't mean I can't discuss concerns with it. No?

 

[ska invita]

I've no beef with Rhyddical and genuinely want to see the Bookfair return as a success, but that shouldn't mean I can't discuss concerns with it. No?

You can do what you want and are best judge of that ... But here's an event that hasn't happened yet, a year away even, we all know how fragile it is, and here's a 30 page full of griping. That's on top of griping the organisers seem to be getting from other corners. Plus insults.

What would help most to make this event happen? Is there really that much need for more public "concerns"? The most recent concerns have been a hypothetical getting beaten up and that someone from Goldsmiths exists within range of the bookfair. Mainly feels massively counter productive to me

 

[rat]

We will almost certainly have a designated room for those who just need some chill the fuck down time.

That's going to very entertaining!
But that room will get overcrowded with all the people who have been triggered and then you'll need a separate room for the people who've done the upsetting. And what if your security units feel upset too?

 

[ska invita]

On top of everything there's this twat

That's going to very entertaining!
But that room will get overcrowded with all the people who have been triggered and then you'll need a separate room for the people who've done the upsetting. And what if your security units feel upset too?

 

[chilango]

You can do what you want and are best judge of that ... But here's an event that hasn't happened yet, a year away even, we all know how fragile it is, and here's a 30 page full of griping. That's on top of griping the organisers seem to be getting from other corners. Plus insults.

What would help most to make this event happen? Is there really that much need for more public "concerns"? The most recent concerns have been a hypothetical getting beaten up and that someone from Goldsmiths exists within range of the bookfair. Mainly feels massively counter productive to me

Whilst I take your point, I don't think reasonable discussion should be shut down because of this.

 

[rat]

Did you actually make a new account to ressurect a dead thread and spew some ad hom? Atleast you chose the right name eh?

This thread will be alive in the run-up to Bookfair 2020 and in the months after that event.

 

[Pickman's model]

Let's just have the bloody thing and hash over any fallout after

 

[Pickman's model]

This thread will be alive in the run-up to Bookfair 2020 and in the months after that event.

The months and years

 

[redsquirrel]

I was going to respond to this more in detail but after todays nonsense (and FTR I think the contributions of both FLB and rat are a load of f'ing twaddle)...
But to the key points

Red Squirrel and Rat, I don't know whether you havn't bothered reading the thread or whether you are comfortable the mask of symantics but this threads origin literally started with the negation and undermining of the trans community but saying that providing a space they were safe and secure in was IdPol and "not anarchist".

First, it's a bit rich for someone who's admitted they have made a quote up to claim that other people have not read the thread. Second, the initial pages of the thread have as much commentary about the list of (potential) invitee's as they do about the safe spaces policy. In fact only a single poster (bar you) mentions identity politics before page 10.

The more recent addition via the blog, that black anarchist feel similarly uncomforable and we should seek to make changes equally met with accusations of IdPol.

Has it? Where? I can find no such claim. It is something you have invented in post #805

Are you saying that labelling something as Idpol isn't saying that it's a detraction from Revolutionary Working Class Anarchism?

I'm saying that if you truly want a discussion with people on this thread you need to read and respond to what they have actually written not what has been posted elsewhere and not your version of what they have said, like the below which is just dishonest crap.

Is that right? I mean It REALLY seems like that is what certain people are saying here. (and no I'm not tagging peoples comments and highlighting them for review and hostility - have a scroll if you are truly interested)

you can't quote these positions because they don't exist, you've made then up.

 

[editor]

This thread will be alive in the run-up to Bookfair 2020 and in the months after that event.

Nobody cares about your opinions.

 

[Rhyddical]

Red Squirrel, if you don't think that we're being accused of IdPol and refuse to scroll up and read the thread I'm not sure what I can do. If you think we're not being accused on IdPol in this thread you have not read it, I know there is a metric fuck ton of commentary here, and it's a bit unfair of me to say "read it all" but I will not drag the specific comments of people on this thread out to highlight them for critism and review. I feel that would be unfair to what in all likelyhood is people with a just concern about Identitity Politics taking over Anarchim and misgivinga about a Bookfair which - to them - seems to be playing thick and fact with IdPol.

I am truly sorry if you feel this is me manufacturing strawmen, not much I can do about it. You don't think that the comments exist and I'm saying that they are bad.... so arn't we on the same page? IdPol is shit, trans and black comrades are welcome and we should provide a space for discussions on trans issues and race relations etc.... what exactly are we having a barny about?

You can highlight my failings all you wish, I'm not perfect, I'm just some dude drink a cuppa tea after work trying to talk to people about an Anarchist Bookfair. I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to speak a bit to quickly and make bad calls. I'm not a fucking press office and we're not the Labour Party being held up for review. Where I've mispoke I've clarified, where I've read some thing wrong, I've apologised. Not sure what more you want, You seem to be trying to win some kind of perfect debator, personality award.

You win, fair enough. gratz

If we can all just accept I'm a prat or whatever someone said earlier, that my personal twitter uses some anarchronistic language and that I may or may not be working class depending on how sexy I look in a Hi Vis, maybe we can move on from the personal attacks and get on with the buisness of bookfair eh?

We are your comrades at the end of the day, and I personally would much rather discuss the realities of Anarchist organising than continue a needless back and forth. Certainly earlier ... I think between pages 16/24 this thread was parralel to a massive and very aggressive Transphobic tirade on our Fb and Twitter which I was trying to manage by personally responding to specific concerns (as I am here) before another admin said nah fuck it and shut down that channel of abuse.

So shall we clear ze air and address the things. Tell me if I got them wrong.

So far, the majority of this thread and the concerns elsewhere come down to..

- Not providing a platform for Grender Critical Women is not Anarchist, Women with concerns about gender issues should be provide a space or atleast not barred. It's either silencing women or "having rules" which isn't Anarchist depending on who you ask.
- Providing a safer space for Trans (and seemingly Goldsmiths Students and or possibly Jewdas?) comrades and holding workshops/stalls arround said issue is Identity Politics.

This alongside tenable concerns such as

- The difficult relationship we have with the LABC who despite inviting people to take on bookfair seem to feel usurped, which in all fairness is something is something we are very keen to heal (infact with comrades meeting shortly for a bit of bridge building) and truly we would welcome their involvement.
- The provision for childcare and youth, something we are looking into, hopefully having proffesional comrades on hand to provide a active and fun series of events and space geared towards more teenage interests (Ie video games yo and crafts)

Would this be correct?

If you have concerns about Bookfair, state them, please be clear, use crayons if you want to, I don't want to mischaracterise anyone.
State them and hopefully I'll be able to resolve your issues. This is what I am here for comrade x


p.s. I am not the comrade who shared stuff on their FB. What people share on the FB is their own affair but the context here is someone saying "bah look at this from some terf" and shared three screenshots from this thread, specifically from someone who self identified as someone that trans rights organisers would call "terf" whose concerns were that Terfs often get equated to fascists and thus this was just concern that Anarchists would respond to women attending as we might fash, ie violence.

I suspect quite a bit of this thread has been lifted and used elsewhere by people, as I recall there was even something on mum's net. Given that atleast one person has done a google search for my username and outted me by sharing my real name and that a number of my facebook groups have shown suspicious activity related to doxxing, I suspect people are making some shady efforts.

It is the nature of organising I suppose. What makes me sad here is that this hostility is coming not from out n out transphobes or even fash, but comrades who aside from some relatively minor disagreements on Anarchist protocol should be up for having a friendly pint and share solidarity.

With the scene also tearing itself apart over whether or not to vote Labour, it's a really shite precident and if I've contributed to it, I am sorry.

I want us to speak as comrades.

 

[Athos]

Once again, whether through dishonesty or a lack of understanding, you grossly mischaracterise others' positions, with the effect of creating strawmen.

So far, the majority of this thread and the concerns elsewhere come down to..

- Not providing a platform for transphobes is not Anarchist

No, nobody has argued that. The disagreement is about whether or not it's consistent with anarchist principles for you to exercise your power to exclude anarchists you identify as transphobes, absent any consensus amongst anarchists that they are.

Women with concerns about gender issues should be provide a space.

Not women per se, but anarchist women. Which isn't a position that's in any way inconsistent with an anarchist principles, or in any way offensive. It ought not to be controversial!

- Providing a safer space for Trans (and seemingly goldsmiths?) comrades is Identity Politics.

Nobody has said that providing a safe space for trans comrades is identity politics per se. If you believe they have, please quote the specific post (and I mean use the quote function rather than make something up and put it in inverted commas again).

I want us to speak as comrades.

This will only happen when you make an effort to understand what people are saying, and engage with it honestly.


PS If the alleged doxxing has occurred, I condemn it.

I also condemn members of your group's decisions to reproduce parts of this thread on other social media, with inflammatory commentary.

 

[redsquirrel]

If you have concerns about Bookfair, state them, please be clear, use crayons if you want to, I don't want to mischaracterise anyone.
State them and hopefully I'll be able to resolve your issues. This is what I am here for comrade x
.....
I want us to speak as comrades.

So do I, and I am trying to engage with you. But frankly I am reaching the stage where I am thinking fuck it. I do not know whether it is just carelessness/tiredness or a deliberate misrepresentation but you have, not once or twice, but many, many times misrepresented people's views - including at least one instance of making a quote up.

Red Squirrel, if you don't think that we're being accused of IdPol and refuse to scroll up and read the thread I'm not sure what I can do. If you think we're not being accused on IdPol in this thread you have not read it

The above is a prime example I made no such statements as you have attributed to me. I disputed two specific claims you made that were both false.

I know there is a metric fuck ton of commentary here, and it's a bit unfair of me to say "read it all" but I will not drag the specific comments of people on this thread out to highlight them for critism and review. I feel that would be unfair to what in all likelyhood is people with a just concern about Identitity Politics taking over Anarchim and misgivinga about a Bookfair which - to them - seems to be playing thick and fact with IdPol.

And this confirms it. You yourself have admitted that you made up a quote. Numerous posters have disputed the what you have claimed and you are not willing to even give a page backing up your claims. This is why I'm fed up with you, it is totally dishonest.

You can highlight my failings all you wish, I'm not perfect, I'm just some dude drink a cuppa tea after work trying to talk to people about an Anarchist Bookfair. I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to speak a bit to quickly and make bad calls. I'm not a fucking press office and we're not the Labour Party being held up for review.

You say that you want to have a discussion as comrades, and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt even after you made up a quote, but not any longer.
I except that people post on U75 in their spare time, that you are dealing with comments via multiple platforms but if you are serious about having a discussion then you own other posters the courtesy of reading what they are posting and responding to that not to comments that have appeared elsewhere or you have invented.

If you are not willing or able to take the care not to misrepresent quotes/positions then ok but don't pretend that you then want a comradely debate you don't.

 

[redsquirrel]

Nobody cares about your opinions.

Thanks for getting rid of the dick.

 

[chilango]

Thanks Rhyddical. I won't c&p your post, it's long, it's early and I've not had my coffee yet. But, for clarity I'll try and summarize my concerns:

There is, understandably, a focus on ensuring trans people feel safe and welcome at the Bookfair. There can be no disagreement with this...but, I fear that this focus can easily slide into drawing a very hard-line on so-called TERFs based on "floating definitions". The Bookfair then gets sucked into a very nasty and alienating dispute.

By entering this kind of dispute the Bookfair is in an arena where idpol is increasingly hegemonic.

The Bookfair is the "signature dish" of the Anarchist movement in England. It is a core part of the infrastructure for movement reproduction, especially for geographically and socially isolated comrades and fellow travellers.

If the Bookfair is sucked into the terrain of an idpol performative battle, then having a large proportion of non-Anarchist stalls further weakens it's ability to reproduce an Anarchist movement and is "just another radical Bookfair". I like radical Bookfair. But that's not the point.

There are wider issues around making both the Bookfair and the movements in general more accessible and welcoming to people outside an activist bubble. Enabling a sustainable movement that people can remain engaged in, and part of, once life gets in the way (I know Plan C for example are trying look at this - so hopefully there's wider recognition of the issue). Childcare is part of this, but I do think tone, atmosphere and culture count to. The behaviour we've witnessed (from both sides) in the "TERF wars" is utterly alienating imo.

Sorry that wasn't anywhere near as concise as I'd hoped.