Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh, but if you read my post you'll see I was talking about people who formerly showed no interest in sport. Do try to respond to what I say, not what you think I say
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
So the thread entertains what is quite frankly somewhat overt acceptance and endorsement of casual transphobia, under the quise of "we're not racist" "It's the factz" esk language primed together with "This isn't an issue for Anarchists" esk BS.
The systematic abuse of a minority community at the hands of the state and community at large is an issue for Anarchism, and standing in solidarity with the abused and oppressed will be a prominant issue at Bookfair 2020.
Twenty years ago the papers shared articles denouncing Lesbians in womens toilets and now we see the same for the trans community.
It's not about "hurt feelings" it's about the mental, social and political abuse, the deaths and murders and the sickening bigotry you think seems to be in any was endorsable.
"There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices."
You are catagorically wrong in the first bit tho perhaps you are right in the second, people who try to silence minority rights activists arn't Anarchists.
Anarchism, while not saturating itself in cross class distractions is inherently opposed to bigotry, oppression and heirarchial structures.
If that isn't your kind of Anarchism then frankly you can fuck off back to mumsnet.
Certainly don't bother coming to Bookfair 2020.
I'm rather suprised and dissappointed at the lack of commentry here from other Anarchists. Especially those who shared their own solidarity statement with the trans community here on this thread who now sit silent without a word against that bullshit up there.
The systematic abuse of a minority community at the hands of the state and community at large is an issue for Anarchism, and standing in solidarity with the abused and oppressed will be a prominant issue at Bookfair 2020.
Twenty years ago the papers shared articles denouncing Lesbians in womens toilets and now we see the same for the trans community.
It's not about "hurt feelings" it's about the mental, social and political abuse, the deaths and murders and the sickening bigotry you think seems to be in any was endorsable.
"There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices."
You are catagorically wrong in the first bit tho perhaps you are right in the second, people who try to silence minority rights activists arn't Anarchists.
Anarchism, while not saturating itself in cross class distractions is inherently opposed to bigotry, oppression and heirarchial structures.
If that isn't your kind of Anarchism then frankly you can fuck off back to mumsnet.
Certainly don't bother coming to Bookfair 2020.
I'm rather suprised and dissappointed at the lack of commentry here from other Anarchists. Especially those who shared their own solidarity statement with the trans community here on this thread who now sit silent without a word against that bullshit up there.
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When did this happen?
nyxx
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Didn’t we already have 400+ pages of “discussion” where all this transphobic shit was aired ad infinitum?
Was there any point to that whatsoever?
So people just come and recycle the same old bullshit arguments here, regardless of how it was hashed out previously, just shows you how pointless it is to give any time or energy to these fuk heads who claim they just have legitimate concerns or reasonable questions. Why should anyone take that at face value anymore, I’m really not seeing it.
Was there any point to that whatsoever?
So people just come and recycle the same old bullshit arguments here, regardless of how it was hashed out previously, just shows you how pointless it is to give any time or energy to these fuk heads who claim they just have legitimate concerns or reasonable questions. Why should anyone take that at face value anymore, I’m really not seeing it.
You put your left leg in, your leg left out and shake it all about.
That’s what it’s all about.
Whoooooooaaaaa no transphobia
Knees bend arms stretched rah rah rah
That’s what it’s all about.
Whoooooooaaaaa no transphobia
Knees bend arms stretched rah rah rah
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Understand your position there.
However, transphobes arn't allowed a stall for the same reason Stalinist arn't, nor Fascists, nor the Lib Dems.
Beyond that we'll be doing very little "running of it" tbh with the majority of it being out of our hands, willfully so, we are consciously avoiding micro manageing the event. (Tho I may not always make that clear). I'm also personally not cool with the nicking of the banner (and still hoping it's in an attic somewhere to be returned) and I think there is a great debate to be had on the nature of the the "appeal to a state" for protection.... If we run a working class question time or something that would be a good question !
Here we are again comparing ‘transphobes’ to fascists. Are they the same? Define both please.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Never said they are the same did I and tbh I often argue with people who do. It's a bullshit argument that disengages from the contextual issues and the variance of the people within either.
You didn't say I was comparing Stalinists to Lib Dems which by your logic there I was....
I said they are arn't allowed a stall for the same reasons. IE They pose a threat to the wellbeing of comrades in attendance. This doesn't mean everyone who has concerns, or who think borders might be ok, or who voted for jo swinson that once time... it means ardent, politically motivated advocates of these positions. As I've said a great many times, we are not banning people who hold whatever view from attending, providing they respect the space and enjoy the aspects they have come for with out distruption.
Those who are known to cause distruption along these lines are asked to not attend and will not be entertained.
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Fair enough but we both know that attacks on GC women have been justified as anti-fascist actions - Fuck knows why you mentioned the Lib Dems. I’m not aware of them desiring a presence at anarchist events.
who will enforce this?
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
TBH Even if POSITE PARKER, undeniably transphobic bigot, racist and collaborator with the Christian right wing in 'murica tuend up with a big "fuck yous" banner and a tv crew, the worst thing any comrade can do in my opinion is lamp here. While I understand the passion and rage of those who feel the bigotry in a way I never could, we have to considoer not just the "moralality of violence" per context but also the optical and tactical fuck uppery of supporting the self victimisation of these characters.
So might like to try and present the idea that, any women who turns up and feels uncomfy with a genderless lav of with the thought of calling a trans women, sister, is going to get labelled fash and get lamped n kicked out, doxxed and lauched at by all the woke snowflakes.... or some thing.
It's utter bullshit.
A: the people who find themselves on the end of any response will have HAD to do something, such as sharing nasty leaflets, staging a protest or started waving ugly banners etc...
B: Rather than any "dangerous spaces policy", we are taking an interventionalist approach to resolve conflicts before they result in two dozen people having a shout at each other until someone snaps and has a fist fight.
C. This isn't "policing thought", it's community protection and it is not focused on responding to transphobic individuals from WPUK or whatever... TBH from pissed up comrades, to Tankies and fash kicking off, Bookfairs have to be ready for it all.
We are only asking for people to respect the nature and character of the event we are running. Bookfair 2020 isn't coming to your hootnanny is it. If you don't like what we are about don't attend, hold your own function and share your opinions like the reasonable adults just looking for a debate ythe GC movement claims to be. No one is stopping you and we've said that we'd even provide awareness for any autonomous fringe event which cares to hold such discussion.
Seriously, rather than all this talk of violence and aggy BS... Surely the more positive aim, from the apparent "grown ups" and "realists" here would be to book a local venue and hold a series of debates and workshops and those who wish to here their take can do so.
The tankies understand that they arn't welcome and once again intend to respect the space and share their position nearby and external. Why wouldn't you do the same?
Makes no sense to me.
re; Lid Dems, fairly certain I remember them trying to position themselves as "radical" a while back and looking to attend more socialist equivlants... Anyways they can fuck off too.
Besides Posie Parker not being a poster here, you need to be more concise in your replies. Nobody likes being beaten by a wall of text.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
fair play, that is a skill I have yet to master. Tho to be fair, quick replies other prove less than robust enough... mind you I DO tend to go a bit too fair the other end of the spectrum.TBH I don't think anyone here would merit "banning" outright, least not that I'm aware.
I thought you said that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave? But now you say you're not banning people who hold whatever view from attending? All of the biologists I've consulted have assured me that mammalian organisms do not change sex and that mammals who produce the small type of gametes are not female. They've presented quite a lot of evidence to support these assertions so I see no reason to doubt them. It appears you were similarly asked by a poster above to support your assertion but that you chose not do so. Would it be accurate therefor to consider your assertion an article of faith? A proposition which is to be held true dogmatically, rather than by argument and evidence? As someone who doesn't subscribe to this particular article of faith, I have a couple of questions:
1. Are there more articles of faith? One I've seen bandying about a lot lately is the assertion that sex is a social construct. The biologists I've consulted have assured me that sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago, long before there were any humans or social constructs around, and that sex is hence definitely not a social construct. So I don't subscribe to that particular assertion either. Will a full list of articles of faith be published beforehand?
2. It's still unclear to me how exactly this is all going to be enforced, which would be handy information to know if there's even a point going to the book fair as someone who doesn't subscribe to these assertions. If people are, say, required to recite the articles of faith upon entry then there's obviously no point in me going to the bookfair as I would refuse to do so. If, on the other hand, people are allowed to hold dissenting beliefs from the official articles of faith as long as they do not express such dissent then I suppose there is no problem as I'm not particularly interested in bringing it up. But that still leaves open some questions, like what if I am directly asked whether I subscribe to the articles of faith - if I answer honestly in the negative I'd have actually expressed dissent, which seemingly would be grounds for expulsion?
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Lot of new members here all of a sudden eh?
We have never said those "that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave", we have said those who do not respect the space and aim to distrupte the event or initimidate others through the dissemination of transphobic articles etc etc are not welcome.
In fact there are several expansive posts here where this point is clarified.
You said "I thought you said" Which indicates that you are a member who has made another account mearly to share this more overtly dodge comment. I wonder if you are one of those who called me disingenuous?
"All of the biologists I've consulted..." I assume that was a small number who are not very good at their job, they don't seem to be away of the complexity of "sex development" in mammals. I mean escaping your whole "change sex" you'll find that trans men are men who were mearly "assigned" female at birth.
"sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago" is an interesting comment since you seem the be relying on Mammalian life, which didn't evolve until some 300 Million years ago and even then it was proto-mammals... I mean I understood the vague bit of pseudo science you are trying to elude too but your Biologists arn't very good is all, further You have not seen that "sex is a social contruct" you have seen "gender is a social contruct".
Look, I am not here to argue with bigots and trolls. urgh why am I bothering, I don't have the crayons to explain this to you.
You seek to bait me into wasting my time source article and educating you on some rather basic science, all of which you'll have a copy and paste answer for or dismiss as anecdotal. I owe you no debate over the relative biology and anthropology of transgenderism.
I am here to talk about Bookfair 2020.
Again I appeal to the common reason of those on this thread who made a point of expressing their organisational solidarity with the trans community to say something here.
I'm just going to hit ignore. Have a nice life x
We have never said those "that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave", we have said those who do not respect the space and aim to distrupte the event or initimidate others through the dissemination of transphobic articles etc etc are not welcome.
In fact there are several expansive posts here where this point is clarified.
You said "I thought you said" Which indicates that you are a member who has made another account mearly to share this more overtly dodge comment. I wonder if you are one of those who called me disingenuous?
"All of the biologists I've consulted..." I assume that was a small number who are not very good at their job, they don't seem to be away of the complexity of "sex development" in mammals. I mean escaping your whole "change sex" you'll find that trans men are men who were mearly "assigned" female at birth.
"sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago" is an interesting comment since you seem the be relying on Mammalian life, which didn't evolve until some 300 Million years ago and even then it was proto-mammals... I mean I understood the vague bit of pseudo science you are trying to elude too but your Biologists arn't very good is all, further You have not seen that "sex is a social contruct" you have seen "gender is a social contruct".
Look, I am not here to argue with bigots and trolls. urgh why am I bothering, I don't have the crayons to explain this to you.
You seek to bait me into wasting my time source article and educating you on some rather basic science, all of which you'll have a copy and paste answer for or dismiss as anecdotal. I owe you no debate over the relative biology and anthropology of transgenderism.
I am here to talk about Bookfair 2020.
Again I appeal to the common reason of those on this thread who made a point of expressing their organisational solidarity with the trans community to say something here.
I'm just going to hit ignore. Have a nice life x
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Well I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd like to know how exactly the bookfair requirements will go.
This is what you said:
Which directly implies that people who are known for sharing media with the idea that trans women are not women will be asked to leave.
It indicates no such thing other than that I have been reading the thread where you have stated what I just quoted you stating. Paranoid much?
Three, to be precise, but they seemed competent enough. None of them said anything about "assigning" anything to anyone. They mostly seemed to observe that gametes in sexually reproducing species fall into distinct types, and basically calling organisms male or female based on which type of gametes it produces.
No I've seen that "sex is a social construct" but thanks for telling me what I've seen and not seen. Will wrong-see (as opposed to just wrong-think) also be enforced? If I point you to that link will I be required to comply and say something like "Yes sir, I am seeing 'gender is a social construct' and not 'sex is a social construct'"?
You could've just said "yes" to the question "is it an article of faith?" It wasn't a complaint, I wasn't really expecting you to argue your assertion, just wanted to make sure it was indeed an article of faith, something to be adhered to dogmatically.
And that is what you were asked about, several questions of which you answered none.
Thank you, I will. Too bad the book fair won't apparently be part of it anymore. After all, if I wanted to be told what to dogmatically believe and what I see with my own eyes then I can get that a lot closer to home than London.
Here's another example of the assertion that "sex is a social construct" or that "transwomen are not biologically male." Another biologist called Jerry Coyne addressed this as well, see here, but perhaps he is just not good at his job? His Wikipedia article certainly seems to consider him legit, but what do I know... Either way, it is definitely the case that the assertion that "sex is a social construct" can be seen.
nyxx
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nyxx
*
Oh, but apparently you’re still here, come back one hour after yer flounce beating the single issue transphobe drum. On a thread about an event you’ve just said you won’t be having anything to do with, on a forum you joined yesterday, apparently solely so you could get some specific trolling in. Riiiight.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Who are the biologists you claim to have consulted, all of whom would doubtless have told you gender is a social construct?
TBH I don't think anyone here would merit "banning" outright, least not that I'm aware.
I think most people read on their phones, they don't read my posts either. But that comment is just a way of attacking you personally. There are questions about bookfair from people who actually attend/are involved in anarchist politics but McGinty isn't one of them. (neither am I)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I hope I don't betray a confidence when I say I've met Magnus McGinty at the bookfair
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The golden shower could attend to provide comic relief
Oh ok, sorry Magnus McGinty. I have also been once or twice.
Still, seemed like a dig for the sake of it instead of engaging with the points made. I don't think it helps the conversation along.
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