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Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement
- Thread starter ernestolynch
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24 hour news jism.
classicdish
Well-Known Member
Airplanes sometimes also dump excess fuel for the same reason - the main point we all seem to agree on is that the lack of bomb doesn't show it was dropped in anger.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
What do those appealing to the UN or the US/Britain to "do something" expect them to do? This is a revolution and has to be carried out by the Libyan people. Calling for outside intervention is hypocritical when we opposed the invasion of Iraq.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
From Al Jazeera
The wall street journal calling for the arming of the protestors. Miles ahead of Socialist Worker on that one. LOL
The wall street journal calling for the arming of the protestors. Miles ahead of Socialist Worker on that one. LOL
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Tunisians and Egyptians could organise international brigades, humanitarian aid and weapons
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Yeah, a bit of solidarity amongst the uprisings would be good but I don't see any hint of it happening.
Could Egypt intervene militarily the way Vietnam intervened in Cambodia?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
It could but I don't see it doing so. The Egyptian military doesn't share the revolutionary sentiments of its people. The Vietnam example isn't really a parallel. Vietnam intervened in Cambodia after Pol Pot launched several brutal border raids into its territory.
As far as solidarity is concerned, there have been convoys organised from Egypt carrying medicines etc.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
I was reading it to mean that if they were carrying them so were the planes which didn't defect to Malta, supporting what the pilots said about being ordered to use them. Of course the other planes may not have used them or only used them on non-human targets.
What is MLW?
Also are the west placing too much emphasis on the tribalism in Libya?
classicdish
Well-Known Member
Maybe *you* opposed Iraq but not everyone here did, and the US/UK governments certainly didn't. The more limited 1991 invasion was also supported by a range of middle eastern governments as well, some of whom actually sent troops.
A 'non-fly zone' for Gadafi's combat aircraft and/or stating that air attacks against civilians will 'not be tolerated', and see if he (or any of his pilots) want to try their luck? Maybe taking out any tank columns that are sighted rolling eastwards from Tripoli towards Benghazi (a very exposed 600 mile journey along the coastal road). No need for boots on the ground - just even things up a bit for those Libyan units who are anti-Gadafi. Maybe even just provide some satellite images, phone taps and other intelligence assistance to anti-Gadaffi units, letting them know what he is up to? Plenty of things can be done without actually "invading".
Whether this would be a good idea or not is another matter, but there is range of things that are perfectly possible and the US/UK/NATO regularly go around attacking 'sovereign territory' without permission. What is so different about this week?
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
They don't particularly want Gaddafi to fall, or they're not sure enough of the outcome to piss him off or they think outside involvement will strengthen him. Either way, it's a far riskier judgement call than "wait and see".
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
AJE speaking to a general in Tobruk now. He says he was with gadafi but not now. he is a tyrant. He heard his speech and denies they are secessionists, not splitting from Tripoli. When asked if he had resigned his position. He said He his taking his soldiers and helping the protesters. Although he doesn't seem to know how many soldiers.
He says he heard a battalion took part in an air strike in Benghazi a massacre.
He also said at 10.30am he saw a pilot eject from a plane and this is now being tweeted as reported on AJA. Whether their only source is this phone call I don't know.
He says he heard a battalion took part in an air strike in Benghazi a massacre.
He also said at 10.30am he saw a pilot eject from a plane and this is now being tweeted as reported on AJA. Whether their only source is this phone call I don't know.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
There's live shots on Al-Jazeera of a demonstration in Toburk with one of the protesters carrying a banner that reads "Oil for the West"... I'm not sure if he is being ironic or that is two fingers
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Grisley footage from a hospital in Tripoli
classicdish
Well-Known Member
When you say "they" do you mean Obama and Cameron? I think it's fairly obvious that Gadafi is now toast, but there are several unknowns: how much more violence and damage is he going to create as he falls, how long will it take, who exactly will step into the vacuum and what is their stance going to be on a whole range of issues - all the same unknowns that applied Egypt in fact (and still do apply). It's true that any overt military intervention could backfire and is 'risky' but they could start giving some 'signals' to the Libyan military behind the scenes. They can also cut some behind-the-scenes agreements with all their existing contacts even if they are happy to cut the gadafi family loose - for example they are already having private discussions with ambassadors in London and US who have said they no longer support Gadafi... no doubt they will be furiously trying to preserve UK and US 'interests' and seeing which of the possible 'replacements' will play ball.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
Here is a primer for anyone wanting to catch up on the situation in Libya before and during the uprisings.
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/whats-happening-libya-explained
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/whats-happening-libya-explained
Might well be a mix of both - while its unlikely that he's been able to fly a whole group of mercenaries in at short notice its quite plausible that there were already some in the country. Libya does have a black population too and some of these guys will be serving in the security forces.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Defected officers do seem to be corroborating the claims about mercenaries (although they obviously have an interest in exonerating the army).
There have been others too.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Fair enough. I omit the foul despicable Blair apologists and war mongers who supported a shameful and illegal war and invasion and subsequent sociocide of a nation from my comments above and make it clear I was talking about those who have a shred of decency and soul and principle and who opposed the disgraceful adventure. To them, calling for Western intervention is hypocritical. If there was a revolution to remove Saddam from power we would all be supporting it right now. The difference being that such an act would be the act of the Iraqi people. Likewise i support the revolution to remove Gaddafi precisely because it is an act of the Libyan people. That means i oppose all western intervention. I opposed it in 91 too
Who/what changed the thread title and why?
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
what was it before?
Libya kicking off or something. Bit big brother.
Out of date.
Intervention was largely the result of territorial disagreements and provocative cross-border attacks into Vietnam by KR soldiers from around 1977 (raids on villages and the shelling of towns), eventually escalating to the point where, by 1978, to stop the interruption of their own reconstruction efforts, the Vietnamese decided 'regime change' in Phnom Penh was the best option. Some among the Vietnamese leadership will have been concerned and upset about what was happening in DK, but solidarity and humanitarianism was not the top priority.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
well gaddafi won't be there for much longer wouldn't "The Lybian revolution thread" been a better choice?
Spion
I hear ya
I don't know what 'the west' is saying that you refer to, but not necessarily. Tribal structures were alive and well in a form they had been for centuries in many of these countries. Then with the advent of capitalism/oil revenues they have been transformed and solidified as conduits for channeling wealth/influence/ensuring loyalty.
That's not to say they're the be all and end all and that there won't be tension with people acting as individuals and in parties, but they're a powerful social background across the ME
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