Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[dylans]

About time!

http://news.yahoo.com/us-recognizes-libyan-rebels-libyan-government-124658625.html

It's about time they recognised the Libyan rebels human rights abuses too don't you think

Libyan rebels have looted and burned homes and abused civilians, a human rights group said Wednesday.
The New York-based Human Rights Watch said that, in "four towns captured by rebels in the Nafusa Mountains over the past month, rebel fighters and supporters have damaged property, burned homes, looted from hospitals, homes, and shops, and beaten some individuals alleged to have supported government forces."

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/13/libya.war/

Perhaps the US would care to condemn the overt racism and plans for ethnic cleansing by the rebel groups too

Tawergha, a small town 25 miles to the south of Misrata, inhabited mostly by black Libyans, a legacy of its 19th-century origins as a transit town in the slave trade:
Ibrahim al-Halbous, a rebel commander leading the fight near Tawergha, says all remaining residents should leave once if his fighters capture the town. “They should pack up,” Mr. Halbous said. “Tawergha no longer exists, only Misrata.”

Other rebel leaders are reported as:
“calling for drastic measures like banning Tawergha natives from ever working, living or sending their children to schools in Misrata.”
In addition, according to the article, as a result of the battle for Misrata:
nearly four-fifths of residents of Misrata’s Ghoushi neighborhood were Tawergha natives. Now they are gone or in hiding, fearing revenge attacks by Misratans, amid reports of bounties for their capture.
Amid allegations of black mercenaries and stories of mass rape by the inhabitants of Tawergha,

Sam Dagher reports on further evidence of the racism amongst the rebel forces:
Some of the hatred of Tawergha has racist overtones that were mostly latent before the current conflict. On the road between Misrata and Tawergha, rebel slogans like “the brigade for purging slaves, black skin” have supplanted pro-Gadhafi scrawl.

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/07/libya-ethnic-cleansing/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304887904576395143328336026.html

If this is the rebel's behaviour now, how do you think they will treat the residents of Tripoli when they capture the city?

 

[elbows]

Its not really clear that they will 'capture' Tripoli as such. We don't seem to have much clue about their numbers either.

But in any case, the racial dimension appears to be even worse than we thought it might be in the early days.

 

[dylans]

Its not really clear that they will 'capture' Tripoli as such. We don't seem to have much clue about their numbers either.

But in any case, the racial dimension appears to be even worse than we thought it might be in the early days.

Well quite. I should have said "when they are installed into power by NATO"

 

[elbows]

Its unclear what racist policies they might actually be able to get away with once in power. And they are going to want some cheap workers by the looks of how their economy was structured before the unrest.

So I don't really know how much the problem may manifest itself post-conflict, too many unknowns. Those who want to carry out hideous acts based on race, and perhaps even indulge in things on the scale of ethnic cleansing, will be likely making the most of the opportunities available right now to carry out such deeds.

 

[dylans]

Its unclear what racist policies they might actually be able to get away with once in power. And they are going to want some cheap workers by the looks of how their economy was structured before the unrest.

So I don't really know how much the problem may manifest itself post-conflict, too many unknowns. Those who want to carry out hideous acts based on race, and perhaps even indulge in things on the scale of ethnic cleansing, will be likely making the most of the opportunities available right now to carry out such deeds.

For sure war is the best opportunity for atrocities but it is also revealing of intention. It is a bold assumption to assume that the overthrow of Gaddafi and installation of a puppet regime will be the end of the conflict, it may be the prelude to an insurgency as in Iraq. I don't want to stretch the analogy but most of the bloodletting, and sectarian and ethnic violence in Iraq occurred after regime change and much of it at the hands of those around Maliki, including the effective ethnic cleansing of the Sunni community in Baghdad. These things tend to take a logic of their own, and the fact that the rebels are committing atrocities now while they are reliant on the support of the Western powers doesn't bode well for their possible behaviour if faced with a populace hostile to any new regime.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

SenJohnMcCain John McCain
Recognizing TNC as legitimate gov't of #Libya will free up $30 billion of their money to repay us for our expenses in this conflict.

just read this tweet here form McCain - I wonder if they told them that the war was written on one giant IOU?

 

[elbows]

For sure war is the best opportunity for atrocities but it is also revealing of intention. It is a bold assumption to assume that the overthrow of Gaddafi and installation of a puppet regime will be the end of the conflict, it may be the prelude to an insurgency as in Iraq. I don't want to stretch the analogy but most of the bloodletting, and sectarian and ethnic violence in Iraq occurred after regime change and much of it at the hands of those around Maliki, including the effective ethnic cleansing of the Sunni community in Baghdad. These things tend to take a logic of their own, and the fact that the rebels are committing atrocities now while they are reliant on the support of the Western powers doesn't bode well for their possible behaviour if faced with a populace hostile to any new regime.

I'm only making such an assumption briefly in order to be able to discuss possibilities, for not wishing to make any assumptions at all and the continued terrible quality of information from Libya have left me with little to say at all in this thread for months now.

Lots of eventualities seem possible, but as with my stance earlier in the conflict, I don't think comparisons to Iraq tend to shed much light on things. Gaddafi hanging on for months, and the size of a recent pro-Gaddafi rally, certainly tell me that he has a fair bit of support, but leave me no clearer as to what the balance is actually like in Tripoli.

Knowing very little about the state of things between various tribes, and what deals could be done with them post Gaddafi, leaves me completely unwilling to put odds on the chances of a messy insurgency post-Gaddafi. And right now even discussing a post-Gaddafi Libya puts us into an area that is currently filled with plenty of propaganda, bluff and an unknown amount of actual truth emanating from various NATO countries.

 

[TomUS]

Gaddafi hanging on for months, and the size of a recent pro-Gaddafi rally, certainly tell me that he has a fair bit of support, but leave me no clearer as to what the balance is actually like in Tripoli.

Seems strange to talk about "support" in a brutal dictatorship that will kill you in a second if you disagree. I've never lived in a situation like that but I doubt many of us including me would have the courage to grab gun or protest against Gaddafi, or the other thugs in the ME we've seen resisted lately.

 

[Deareg]

Seems strange to talk about "support" in a brutal dictatorship that will kill you in a second if you disagree. I've never lived in a situation like that but I doubt many of us including me would have the courage to grab gun or protest against Gaddafi, or the other thugs in the ME we've seen resisted lately.

Your country has installed and supported more than enough of these dictators.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And you'll usually find that where they didn't directly install the dictators they played a defining role in creating the conditions that allowed these dictators to take power. But this is all about freedom and democracy, I know people made the exact same arguments we're seeing here in favour of the Iraq invasion but this is different.

 

[dylans]

Seems strange to talk about "support" in a brutal dictatorship that will kill you in a second if you disagree. I've never lived in a situation like that but I doubt many of us including me would have the courage to grab gun or protest against Gaddafi, or the other thugs in the ME we've seen resisted lately.

I am no fan of Gaddafi but to deny that his regime has significant support is just deluding yourself.

 

[Deareg]

I am no fan of Gaddafi but to deny that his regime has significant support is just deluding yourself.

He is deluding himself if he thinks the Yanks give a fuck about democracy.

 

[sunny jim]

Apologies if this has already been discussed but the PR/Lobbying company that is being used by the TNC, Patton Boggs, is the same one that Mubarak used as well as the one used by Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, and Oman amoungst other repressive regimes. To me this makes the whole situation a lot murkier and the idea of this being a popular revolution is being contradicted by this fact

 

[TomUS]

Your country has installed and supported more than enough of these dictators.

That's right. What's your point?

 

[TomUS]

I am no fan of Gaddafi but to deny that his regime has significant support is just deluding yourself.

I'm pretty suspicious of mass demonstrations of "support" in dictatorships. N Korea puts on lots of them. I know someone who grew up under Chauchesku. She said she attended demos in support of him & that everyone knew they were expected to attend & chant slogans but it was a farce.

 

[dylans]

I'm pretty suspicious of mass demonstrations of "support" in dictatorships. N Korea puts on lots of them. I know someone who grew up under Chauchesku. She said she attended demos in support of him & that everyone knew they were expected to attend & chant slogans but it was a farce.

If this regime didn't have support it would never have been able to hold on through months of NATO bombing. This is a civil war and a divided population and you do your argument a disservice by trying to deny the obvious. I don't like Gaddafi but I believe political analysis should be based on reality not on what you want to be true and the image you wish to present of an isolated regime faced with a popular rebellion is simply untrue. For whatever reasons, (people rallying to the regime in the face of foreign attack ) the regime retains significant support in Tripoli

Your example of Ceausescu is unfortunate because once the revolution began, it was precisely the mass organised demonstration that proved to be his downfall. It turned on him and instead of a happy waving orchestrated crowd he found himself facing a revolutionary demonstration.

 

[Deareg]

That's right. What's your point?

That you seem to be a hypocritical bastard.

 

[BlackArab]

Your example of Ceausescu is unfortunate because once the revolution began, it was precisely the mass organised demonstration that proved to be his downfall. It turned on him and instead of a happy waving orchestrated crowd he found himself facing a revolutionary demonstration.

Was that story true then? The one about the rally when one man shouting against him, others joining and the whole shebang being transmitted via TV live to the nation.

 

[BlackArab]

Your country has installed and supported more than enough of these dictators.

And ours hasn't?

 

[TomUS]

That you seem to be a hypocritical bastard.

Oh I get it. To avoid charges of hypocrisy, I shouldn't criticize dictatorships. Then neither should you.

 

[TomUS]

Was that story true then? The one about the rally when one man shouting against him, others joining and the whole shebang being transmitted via TV live to the nation.

Looks like it, according to Wiki

The mass meeting of 21 December, held in what is now Revolution Square, began like many of Ceaușescu's speeches over the years. With the usual Marxist-Leninist "wooden language", Ceauşescu delivered a litany of the achievements of the "socialist revolution" and Romanian "multi-laterally developed socialist society".

However, he'd seriously misjudged the crowd's mood. Several people began jeering, booing and whistling at him. Others began chanting "Ti-mi-şoa-ra! Ti-mi-şoa-ra!" Ceaușescu's uncomprehending expression as the crowd began to boo and heckle him remains one of the defining moments of the collapse of Communism in Eastern Europe. He tried to silence them by raising his right hand, and when that didn't work, offered them a raise of 100 lei per month. Failing to control the crowds, the Ceaușescus finally took cover inside the building.....

 

[SpineyNorman]

The point is, I think, that people are cheerleading an invasion led by states that have consistently blocked democratic reform in the region and installed and supported dictatorships, naively believing that they really are fighting for the freedom of the Libyan people. The reality of it is that the regime they install will be no less oppressive than that of Goddafi, but it will come with a heavy dose of neoliberal economics, meaning these people will lose the social protections they enjoy under Goddafi.

It's not hypocritical for an American to criticise dictatorships - it's the US state, not its citizens, who have supported tyrants. But it is dangerously naive to believe that the same state has the best interests of the Libyans, or even that as a side effect life will get better for Libyans, when it leads an invasion of Libya.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I didn't see anyone booing or jeering in Tripoli - quite the reverse. If there's one thing that's guaranteed to win an unpopular leader support it's an invasion by an old, hated enemy. Remind me, was Romania being invaded when it all went wrong for Ceaușescu?

 

[BlackArab]

Looks like it, according to Wiki

Thanks Tom, I'd heard mention of that story elsewhere but had not really followed it.

 

[phildwyer]

The point is, I think, that people are cheerleading an invasion led by states that have consistently blocked democratic reform in the region and installed and supported dictatorships, naively believing that they really are fighting for the freedom of the Libyan people. The reality of it is that the regime they install will be no less oppressive than that of Goddafi, but it will come with a heavy dose of neoliberal economics, meaning these people will lose the social protections they enjoy under Goddafi.

Yes. Furthermore any such regime will certainly face a serious violent insurgency from Gaddafi loyalists (and probably others), and Libyans will therefore find themselves living in a state of permanent civil war, like the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[dylans]

More examples of the "rebels" democratic credentials and love for human rights have been reported.

The streaks of blood, smeared along the sides of this impromptu mass grave suggested a rushed operation, a hurried attempt to dispose of the victims.
Who the men were and what happened to them, close to the Libyan rebels' western front line town of Al-Qawalish in the Nafusa Mountains, remains unknown.
But the evidence of a brutal end were clear. One of the corpses had been cleanly decapitated, while the trousers of another had been ripped down to his ankles, a way of humiliating a dead enemy.
The green uniforms were the same as those worn by loyalists fighting for Col. Muammer Gaddafi in Libya's civil war. No one from the rebel side claimed the corpses, or declared their loved ones missing.
There was no funeral, or call to the media by the rebels to see the 'atrocities committed by the regime'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rrying-questions-about-Libyas-rebel-army.html

 

[dylanredefined]

More examples of the "rebels" democratic credentials and love for human rights have been reported.

Its a civil war the most uncivillised sort of war you can have.After Gaddafi wittering on about no mercy for the rebels.Can't really expect them to be magnaminous in victory .

 

[dylans]

Its a civil war the most uncivillised sort of war you can have.After Gaddafi wittering on about no mercy for the rebels.Can't really expect them to be magnaminous in victory .

They are being sponsored and financed by the West on the basis that they are the democratic opposition. They should therefore be judged by their own self defined standards. More than this, some of us have been pointing out for months that the rebels are committing atrocities, most notably against black people,and those claims have been dismissed or ignored. This is indeed a civil war and a divided population not a popular revolution and as such it begs the question why are Western governments taking sides and what hope does this give for the so called democratic post Gaddafi regime the West claims to be the goal?

 

[dylanredefined]

I don't think anyone has a plan.Things happened to quickly and the west reacted.Think seeing Gaddafi dead and his regime smashed will be good enough for the west tbh.

 

[audiotech]

A 'journalist' gives her view from Libya.



http://leonorenlibia.blogspot.com/