Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Casually Red]

remove NATO in the morning and see what happens. Game over in a fortnight .

 

[ernestolynch]

"Divisive Cotton", "Ibn Quisling Khaldoun", "Peter Dow" and all the other curs:

 

[Casually Red]

not so much a rebel alliance as a line up at Krufts . If Krufts had a mongrel section that is .

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

[Cont.] You may shout "imperialism"! But imperialism frames the objective conditions in which US hegemony operates, not narrowly and economistic. Thus (amidst the confusing barrage of reports as early as November) I drew a parallel with Iraq, but Libya for all kinds of reasons the comparison is false. Anyway, Iraq was almost sub-imperialist, an almost irrational destruction of the entire society. Hussein's swift fall testified to his weakness only. In Libya there is immediately a militarized conflict. Then the EU (which the AL didn't want involved) press the US to support one side rather than the other. As far as the Leftist debates go I'm inclined to say: BOTH are confused, BOTH are wrong but maybe there's no middle-ground. In which case I side with NATO's mission. . . Lesser evil.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Satan, or God's left-hand? I choose the latter.

The real fascists are in power in Tripoli, and their Tankoid cheerleaders who are funded by The Donkey.

He liquidated the Communist Party, just to let you know.

 

[ernestolynch]

[Cont.] You may shout "imperialism"! But imperialism frames the objective conditions in which US hegemony operates, not narrowly and economistic. Thus (amidst the confusing barrage of reports as early as November) I drew a parallel with Iraq, but Libya for all kinds of reasons the comparison is false. Anyway, Iraq was almost sub-imperialist, an almost irrational destruction of the entire society. Hussein's swift fall testified to his weakness only. In Libya there is immediately a militarized conflict. Then the EU (which the AL didn't want involved) press the US to support one side rather than the other. As far as the Leftist debates go I'm inclined to say: BOTH are confused, BOTH are wrong but maybe there's no middle-ground. In which case I side with NATO's mission. . . Lesser evil.

Someone throw the mutt a biscuit.

 

[JHE]

Ibn K,

Who are the factions fighting to overthrow the Gaddafi regime? What are their political objectives? In Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco Islamist factions are strong. Is that also the case in Libya?

Western governments, including the British government, are spending a bloody fortune bombing Libya and killing Libyans. This is welcomed by the anti-Gaddafi factions. Are our rulers paying enormous sums to help oust a leftish dictator and replace him with a gang of Sharia-mongers?

 

[ernestolynch]

Satan, or God's left-hand? I choose the latter.

The real fascists are in power in Tripoli, and their Tankoid cheerleaders who are funded by The Donkey.

He liquidated the Communist Party, just to let you know.

 

[ernestolynch]

Noone forgets NATO's visits.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Haha, you people run out of an argument so quickly. NATO don't know what they're doing. I've already said. So did Brzezinski. God plays dice. The hand is dealt.

Libya can become an advanced capitalist state in ten years. The possibilities for socialist development are also tremendous. Our real battles will be fought later.

 

[ernestolynch]

Haha, you people run out of an argument so quickly. NATO don't know what they're doing. I've already said. So did Brzezinski. God plays dice. The hand is dealt.

Libya can become an advanced capitalist state in ten years. The possibilities for socialist development are also tremendous. Our real battles will be fought later.

'Our'?

You're the whelp of a royalist exile, living in some fancy flat off the Edgware Road most probably.

Like the Miami gusanos, snakes like you always think their homelands are missing them.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Noone forgets NATO's visits.

 

[ernestolynch]

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Nah, I'm poor (it's hard to post on the net as well) and no royalist. (What royalists?Do they even exist). I go back and forth there so am in touch with things.

JHE: There aren't clear factions TBH. All parties have been crushed for years. There're simply oppositional views of various kinds: Secular, Islamist, liberal, conservative, socialist etc.. And mixtures of the above. No clear cut divisions.

 

[ernestolynch]

Tripoli - Friday July 1st, 2011

 

[elbows]

I like the bits in that video where he gets distracted by the woman with words on her hand, he makes some very interesting noises the second time this happens.

 

[dylanredefined]

It has nothing to do with luck. NATO isnt bombing because it has found a new democratic conscience. It wants to install a compliant puppet state that will give it access to that nice top quality oil and allow a foothold in Africa for the West to compete with China. The interests of the Libyan people have nothing to do with this and by allying themselves with Western imperialism the rebels have sided with the enemies of Libyan self determination.

But they already had all that before the war.Gadaffi might be a loon ,but,he was the wests loon.Rolled over like a good dog after Iraq.

 

[elbows]

Saif has had a makeover, and is coming to terms with what has happened.

 

[Casually Red]

Tripoli - Friday July 1st, 2011

now now ern...as the poodle has informed us its just a few drunks and drug addicts . If you look closely you can see Rab C Nesbitt . Carrying a french flag too !

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Libyan free forces who today after a heroic six hour battle won control of Al-Qawalish from the Gadaffi goons, rapists and assorted criminal elements. Onwards to Tripoli step by step, bullet by bullet!

 

[Casually Red]

NATO bombardment by NATO bombardment

 

[ernestolynch]

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Libyan free forces who today after a heroic six hour battle won control of Al-Qawalish from the Gadaffi goons, rapists and assorted criminal elements. Onwards to Tripoli step by step, bullet by bullet!

 

[binka]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/10/us-libya-idUSTRE7270JP20110710

A French minister said on Sunday it was time for Libya's rebels to negotiate with Muammar Gaddafi's government, but Washington said it stood firm in its belief that the Libyan leader cannot stay in power.

The diverging messages from two leading members of the Western coalition opposing Gaddafi hinted at the strain the alliance is under after more than three months of air strikes that have cost billions of dollars and failed to produce the swift outcome its backers had expected.

French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet signaled growing impatience with the progress of the conflict when he said the rebels should negotiate now with Gaddafi's government and not wait for his defeat.

anyone have an opinion on how this mess is going to pan out?

 

[camouflage]

Saif has had a makeover, and is coming to terms with what has happened.

Cheers, was looking for that interview. I stopped expressing opinions about the war in Libya weeks ago as I don't trust either side to any degree whatsoever. I do think NATO's bombing campaign does not represent the actions of an organization that considers the lives of Libyan civilians as paramount, we hear the same old lies and excuses about Command & Control Centers where pregnant women and their children have been blasted away, we see the ICC waved around like a tool. Whole thing stinks to high heaven and Al Jazeera is no longer in my opinion quite as trustworthy as it was. Brain-slugged probably.

The first victim of war, the saying goes, is truth. We'll just have to wait for the historians to sort it all out.

 

[elbows]

anyone have an opinion on how this mess is going to pan out?

I find it hard to make a judgement with strong confidence because we are still missing large swathes of information about the reality on a number of non-military fronts.

I still have little clue about the ability of Tripoli to maintain incoming supplies of various day to day necessities. I presume that eventually this sort of stuff will take its toll on the regime, coupled with other economic woes and a fair chance that the Gaddafi family are not enjoying living in fear of death coming from the skies at any moment.

Having said that, I did also mention in this thread long ago that Gaddafi has quite the reputation for being a great survivor. Obviously shares this trait with the other multi-decade dictators who have been feeling the heat this year, but I guess his survival rep is enhanced by the number of very difficult scrapes he got himself into internationally in the past. Some leaders of countries who caused arguably less problems than Gaddafi did back in the day were eliminated, and yet somehow he made it through to the present era.

So maybe its not a good idea to write him off, but I still scratch my head when trying to imagine quite what a Gaddafi surviving in power scenario would actually be like, how it could happen. In that Saif interview he suggests that the regimes strength is that they have time on their side, its their country and so they can just sit there until the foreign opposition runs out of will and goes home. I suspect that in reality time may not be kind to Gaddafi either, and they don't really have the luxury of playing the long game either.

 

[Idris2002]

Irish times says that Gadaffi has made the first real contacts towards a negotiated settlement, which is how I predicted this thing would end:

RIPOLI – Emissaries from Libya’s Muammar Gadafy have been in contact with Nato members to indicate that he is ready to leave power, France’s government said yesterday, the latest sign of a possible negotiated end to the crisis.

“A political solution is more than ever indispensable and is beginning to take shape,” French prime minister François Fillon told a parliamentary commission which was considering whether to extend France’s military operations in Libya.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0713/1224300654456.html

 

[camouflage]

Nothing'll come of it, merely an Overton Window type stunt to show military pressure is working and make more military pressure something that naturally makes sense. End result...

 

[camouflage]

dp

 

[Idris2002]

Nothing'll come of it, merely an Overton Window type stunt to show military pressure is working and make more military pressure something that naturally makes sense. End result...

And they're going to get the boots from where, exactly?

 

[ernestolynch]

Cheers, was looking for that interview. I stopped expressing opinions about the war in Libya weeks ago as I don't trust either side to any degree whatsoever. I do think NATO's bombing campaign does not represent the actions of an organization that considers the lives of Libyan civilians as paramount, we hear the same old lies and excuses about Command & Control Centers where pregnant women and their children have been blasted away, we see the ICC waved around like a tool. Whole thing stinks to high heaven and Al Jazeera is no longer in my opinion quite as trustworthy as it was. Brain-slugged probably.

The first victim of war, the saying goes, is truth. We'll just have to wait for the historians to sort it all out.

Al Jazeera is the state broadcaster of Qatar.

Why would you have ever trusted the state of Qatar?