Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement
- Thread starter ernestolynch
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Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Libyan State TV Talk Show Not The Usual Propaganda
Yosif A. Shakeir is host of Ashem al-Watan (or "Hope of the Nation"), which is seen on the Libyan state TV channel. The show is using the airwaves in Libya to keep hope for Moammar Gadhafi's regime alive.
There's a war Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is waging in addition to the one against Libyan rebels and NATO: a propaganda war on the airwaves. His goal is to persuade Libyans to support him, and his top commander in that effort is a U.S.-educated political scientist.
Experts say that format could help Gadhafi in his struggle to stay in power.
"The mass media in any country, especially in the dictatorial countries, serve as agents of control by the regime," says Yahya Kamalipour, the head of the Department of Communication and Creative Arts at Purdue University Calumet in Hammond, Ind. "And of course, entertainment is the best vehicle and the most effective form of propaganda
- Bomb him.
- Bomb his show.
- Bomb the Libyan state TV aerials, the radio frequency amplifiers and buildings they are housed in.
- Bomb Gaddafi's information ministers or spokesperson's news conferences.
NATO get a grip. Take Gaddafi TV off the air like you said you would.
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Scrapheap Warriors!
Hey these Libyan engineers are impressive!
Gaddafi is stuffed!
They have a robot with a gun and all sorts!
Hey these Libyan engineers are impressive!
Gaddafi is stuffed!
Agreed. NATO needs to kill this fucker & his sons & get this thing over with. Send in SEAL team 6,7,8, the SAS....whatever it takes to end it. I will never be over as long as Gaddafi & his sons are alive. They're like the Romanovs. They must die to close the chapter.
I don't want to hear a peep on the air-waves from Gaddafi or from any of his goons. Bomb the lot.
- Bomb him.
- Bomb his show.
- Bomb the Libyan state TV aerials, the radio frequency amplifiers and buildings they are housed in.
- Bomb Gaddafi's information ministers or spokesperson's news conferences.
NATO get a grip. Take Gaddafi TV off the air like you said you would.
fantastic!
Look at your buddies - mental cases and right wing yanks lol.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Cunt
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
It is vital and easy for NATO to take out Libyan TV transmitters
Gaddafi, the man, and his sons, are in hiding, probably moving around, looking for safe places, disguised, in amongst civilians, in hospitals, a secret bunker in the desert. Looking for him is a nightmare.
Although NATO controls the skies over Libya and can bomb any place in Libya, we don't where Gaddafi and his sons are, so we don't know where to fire our missiles at to take Gaddafi out and win the war quickly.
But there is an answer, an easy way to win, even though we don't know where Gaddafi is!
Gaddafi keeps control by looking as if he is in control. He does that by appearances on Libyan state TV, which his loyalists control.
Now, in order for the Libyan people in Tripoli or wherever to tune in to Gaddafi-TV they need to point their aerials at the transmitter.
So everyone in Libya knows where the transmitter which is broadcasting Gaddafi TV is located at.
So Gaddafi's transmitter aerials and the radio-frequency amplifiers with their power supplies will be in one place and is the easiest target in the world for NATO to find and bomb and stop Gaddafi broadcasting his propaganda.
Now, OK, he has probably got a spare transmitter but again as soon as he starts broadcasting using the spare transmitter everyone knows where that is as well. So we can take out his spare transmitter as well.
So that is what I was suggesting when I posted earlier. I am pointing out that although NATO has bombed the TV studios that isn't necessarily where the transmitter is, so we need to take out the transmitter aerials.
So this is easy to do - take Gaddafi off the TV, much easier than trying to find him. But for some reason NATO has not properly taken out Gaddafi-TV.
He is still broadcasting. Every time we hear on our TV that "Colonel Gaddafi said in a report broadcast on Libyan state TV ..." - that is proof that NATO has not done its job right.
Gaddafi should not have a TV-station broadcasting his propaganda because NATO can hit the TV-transmitter aerials and associated equipment no problem at all.
So I am just posting to point out that NATO needs to get the finger out and get it done. The fact that they haven't done the obvious thing is a cause for us all to palm our face at NATO's ineptitude. FFS NATO!
As I posted earlier -
Now when you quoted me above I was talking about the same kind of thing.
But the "him" I was talking about was one of Gaddafi's TV propagandists. This guy here - "Yosif A. Shakeir"
Again though, we don't have to kill the actual guy to shut him up, all we have to do is take out the broadcasting transmitter, the same broadcasting transmitter which is broadcasting the rest of Libyan state TV under Gaddafi loyalist control.
I also made the point that if the Gaddafi regime announces it is holding a press conference in Tripoli then we can bomb that too. Of course, the international press corps would be well advised not to attend those press conferences in case they get killed too.
There is one simple point here - the Gaddafi regime has a public face out there in public, we know where it is, we know when it is there and so we can target it and drive the Gaddafi regime underground where it will be much less effective at keeping control.
I think you are missing the specific point I am trying to make. Possibly my fault. Let me try again.
Gaddafi, the man, and his sons, are in hiding, probably moving around, looking for safe places, disguised, in amongst civilians, in hospitals, a secret bunker in the desert. Looking for him is a nightmare.
Although NATO controls the skies over Libya and can bomb any place in Libya, we don't where Gaddafi and his sons are, so we don't know where to fire our missiles at to take Gaddafi out and win the war quickly.
But there is an answer, an easy way to win, even though we don't know where Gaddafi is!
Gaddafi keeps control by looking as if he is in control. He does that by appearances on Libyan state TV, which his loyalists control.
Now, in order for the Libyan people in Tripoli or wherever to tune in to Gaddafi-TV they need to point their aerials at the transmitter.
So everyone in Libya knows where the transmitter which is broadcasting Gaddafi TV is located at.
So Gaddafi's transmitter aerials and the radio-frequency amplifiers with their power supplies will be in one place and is the easiest target in the world for NATO to find and bomb and stop Gaddafi broadcasting his propaganda.
Now, OK, he has probably got a spare transmitter but again as soon as he starts broadcasting using the spare transmitter everyone knows where that is as well. So we can take out his spare transmitter as well.
So that is what I was suggesting when I posted earlier. I am pointing out that although NATO has bombed the TV studios that isn't necessarily where the transmitter is, so we need to take out the transmitter aerials.
So this is easy to do - take Gaddafi off the TV, much easier than trying to find him. But for some reason NATO has not properly taken out Gaddafi-TV.
He is still broadcasting. Every time we hear on our TV that "Colonel Gaddafi said in a report broadcast on Libyan state TV ..." - that is proof that NATO has not done its job right.
Gaddafi should not have a TV-station broadcasting his propaganda because NATO can hit the TV-transmitter aerials and associated equipment no problem at all.
So I am just posting to point out that NATO needs to get the finger out and get it done. The fact that they haven't done the obvious thing is a cause for us all to palm our face at NATO's ineptitude. FFS NATO!
As I posted earlier -
Now when you quoted me above I was talking about the same kind of thing.
But the "him" I was talking about was one of Gaddafi's TV propagandists. This guy here - "Yosif A. Shakeir"
Libyan State TV Talk Show Not The Usual Propaganda
Yosif A. Shakeir is host of Ashem al-Watan (or "Hope of the Nation"), which is seen on the Libyan state TV channel. The show is using the airwaves in Libya to keep hope for Moammar Gadhafi's regime alive.
There's a war Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is waging in addition to the one against Libyan rebels and NATO: a propaganda war on the airwaves. His goal is to persuade Libyans to support him, and his top commander in that effort is a U.S.-educated political scientist.
Experts say that format could help Gadhafi in his struggle to stay in power.
"The mass media in any country, especially in the dictatorial countries, serve as agents of control by the regime," says Yahya Kamalipour, the head of the Department of Communication and Creative Arts at Purdue University Calumet in Hammond, Ind. "And of course, entertainment is the best vehicle and the most effective form of propaganda".
Again though, we don't have to kill the actual guy to shut him up, all we have to do is take out the broadcasting transmitter, the same broadcasting transmitter which is broadcasting the rest of Libyan state TV under Gaddafi loyalist control.
I also made the point that if the Gaddafi regime announces it is holding a press conference in Tripoli then we can bomb that too. Of course, the international press corps would be well advised not to attend those press conferences in case they get killed too.
There is one simple point here - the Gaddafi regime has a public face out there in public, we know where it is, we know when it is there and so we can target it and drive the Gaddafi regime underground where it will be much less effective at keeping control.
fiannanahalba
Feel the Love
Peter, Gaddafi reckons you are located in the Aberdeen area, he has scanners pointing there, ready to pick up any of your frequent brain waves.
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
Gideon won't confirm price of war. Odious fucker. I'd have him shot.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/21/george-osborne-refuses-reveal-cost-libya-operations
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/21/george-osborne-refuses-reveal-cost-libya-operations
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I don't want to hear a peep on the air-waves from Gaddafi or from any of his goons. Bomb the lot.
- Bomb him.
- Bomb his show.
- Bomb the Libyan state TV aerials, the radio frequency amplifiers and buildings they are housed in.
- Bomb Gaddafi's information ministers or spokesperson's news conferences.
NATO get a grip. Take Gaddafi TV off the air like you said you would.
stick to your loony uniforms you twat
It seems to me to be pretty easy and obviously a good thing to smash up Gaddafi's TV and radio broadcasting stations, transmitters and related infrastructure. That way, the international communitty and the rebels will control the airwaves.
TV transmitters etc are large, easy to find, expensive and hard to replace (when there's someone waiting to bomb the repairmen if they try).
Giles..
TV transmitters etc are large, easy to find, expensive and hard to replace (when there's someone waiting to bomb the repairmen if they try).
Giles..
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
The biggest problem is that they are using Nileset, a satellite broadcasting company based in Egypt.
At the moment a group of Egyptian lawyers are trying to legally force Nileset to comply with a Arab League decision to switch off his media outlets
At the moment a group of Egyptian lawyers are trying to legally force Nileset to comply with a Arab League decision to switch off his media outlets
They must be uplinking to it from somewhere. Or have we no ASAT missiles left?
Giles..
Deareg
Well-Known Member
Wasn't sure where to put this. Looks like they were telling us lies again.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html
Does anyone believe a word that our lords and masters say any more?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html
Does anyone believe a word that our lords and masters say any more?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Blimey, thats a huge amount of propaganda-busting for one newspaper article!
My thoughts on what it was possible for us to ascertain as events in Libya unfolded are as follows:
It was possible to determine that rebels talked a lot of shit, as certain early stages of this thread show, but some of their claims were occasionally verified, so could not really write the entire thing off as 100% bullshit. Generally we were too slow to realise the extent of the bullshit.
There were a number of reasons to fret about the likely reality of the 'mercenary' thing, again dealt with at the time in this thread by a variety of people.
The heavy way that the news went crazy about flying machines killing protesters was ott enough to raise suspicions, suspicions which should have increased as evidence for such actions failed to materialise over the following weeks.
The very fast and broad international agreements via the UN probably helped convince some people that this really was a straightforward case of someone very bad doing unspeakable things to rather large amounts of people. I suspect the actual reasons stuff was able to unfold so efficiently on the world legal stage was more to do with Gaddafi's lack of close powerful friendly nations, and his reputation. Gaddafi had forged partnerships with many countries, but these seem to have been uneasy in some ways. Gaddafi's unpredictability and his tendency to rant about stuff in global public forums are probably enough on their own to make many, many countries around the world happy to see the back of him.
Gaddafi's own propaganda has worked against him. Despite the extent to which we ridiculed it, its possible that it may have been ok for the domestic audience that it was targeted at. But it was a spectacular own goal on the international front, it played right into the hands of those guiding the international effort against the Gaddafi regime, at just the moments they needed it.
Likewise, even when it started to dawn on us that our sense of how much of an uprising against Gaddafi there really was by various tribes, military units, and people in Tripoli, was in need of serious review, the rather shit stage management of Gaddafi propaganda events provided opportunity for some people to avoid such adjustments.
Personally I find it all rather hopeless because I believe that sound politics & economics requires at least a certain amount of truth, and an absence of the most suffocating forms of control. Neither side in this conflict come close to meeting my minimum requirements for this, I couldnt imagine having to live under the rule of either. Not that Id score our own nation very highly by these measures, as romantic notions of truth as an ultimate weapon of justice for people rubs uneasily against its opposite, the possibility that all of these struggles are just choices between different flavours of bullshit.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
The ASAT program was canceled in the late 80s and the only successful ASM-135 launch was against a defunct research satellite in a 600km orbit. Nilesat is geostationary at 35,000km. Plus you'd be depriving most of North Africa and the Middle East of The Bold and the Beautiful.
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Well if Divisive Cotton hadn't have put me on his ignore list he would know I had quoted Paul Wolfowitz writing that in my post #5076 here.
Gaddafi (Jamahirya) TV website
Gaddafi (Jamahirya) TV being broadcast on Egypt's Nilesat
No I don't even have satellite TV at home. I am a scientist though, which does help.do you work in satellites?
Most likely Gaddafi TV is being uplinked to Nilesat from somewhere in Libya, with a back-up possibility of uplinking from any one of Nilesat's uplink stations in Egypt or elsewhere.
So one can't really avoid confronting those who control Nilesat by searching for and targeting only the Libyan uplink Gaddafi TV is using to uplink to Nilesat.
- If NATO is too cowardly to confront Egypt who control Nilesat and
- if NATO national governments (Britain, France etc) are too stupid or corrupt to confront the British, French, other European / multinational satellite companies who provide and maintain Nilesat satellites for Egypt
- If NATO is brave enough to confront Nilesat Egypt or
- if NATO national governments (Britain, France etc) are noble or smart enough to confront the British, French, other European / multinational satellite companies who provide and maintain Nilesat satellites for Egypt
One point to note is that the USA funds Egypt with more than $1 billion per year. It doesn't make Egypt a client state of the USA exactly because Egypt has pressure points of its own it can squeeze - the Suez canal and control of the Gaza border but USA funding of Egypt is enough money so that the Egyptians would mind losing it so if Uncle Sam really insists to the Egyptians that they must stop broadcasting Gaddafi TV on Nilesat, the chances are the Egyptians would stop broadcasting Gaddafi so as to keep their $1 billion plus per year.
There are big questions are to why the American government are not putting the squeeze on Egypt to stop broadcasting Gaddafi TV. British and French diplomats should be raising this issue with Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama as a priority needing urgent action.
"ASAT" anti-satellite military weapons are for targeting satellites in space, in earth orbit.
Ground-based uplink facilities can be hit with conventional air-to-ground weapons of the type NATO has been using to hit Gaddafi forces in Libya, though it would be a "first" and no doubt be seen an act of war against the Egyptian regime if we were to target Egyptian uplink facilities to Nilesat.
NATO has not yet bombed uplink stations in Egypt in an effort to silence Gaddafi TV being broadcast on Nilesat. This would be an escalation and widening of the conflict which would need an all-NATO country political decision and this would be unlikely to get unanimous NATO countries support. Libya has few friends in NATO but Egypt has many.
It is unlikely that the USA would agree to bombing Egypt without first trying threatening or withholding USA funds to Egypt to see if that does the trick.
Of course, either Britain or France or a coalition-of-the-willing could take independent military decisions to hit targets in Egypt by using national command or by setting up a special purpose "coalition of the willing" command structure.
However, if Britain, France, the USA or NATO are really willing to confront Egypt then rather than hit ground uplink stations I think it is better to target Nilesat in space, by either seizing control of Nilesat by getting the European/multinationals who provide and maintain the satellites to take them out of the control of the Egyptian Nilesat managers.
The chances are the European multinational space satellite companies have got some buttons in Europe to press which will switch Nilesat satellites off, or they can send a technician to Egypt to do it, assuming he can figure out an escape plan from angry Egyptian broadcasters.
Europe may well have the technology to grab control of the Nilesat satellites without taking them out, since the satellites it seems were made by British / French /European satellite companies.
Whether the European companies who are getting rich selling or leasing satellites to the Egyptians will want to help our military do it, I don't know.
Probably if we pay the satellite companies enough, or threaten them enough with jail if they don't they would help.
Again it is a question of knowing where to apply diplomatic or government pressure to get the right co-operation from the right people.
As for ASAT weapons.
Wikipedia doubts that the British military has our own anti-satellite technology.
Which is why I was asking the US military about their ASAT capability.
Sure Europe has the technology to put anti-satellite weapons together if we had to, if we could find the political will to do it, always a problem in Europe - so many different countries & getting them all agreed on something like this is next to impossible. They will all have their own commercial relationships with Egypt and taking over or out Egypt's satellites could sour European / Egyptian relations, to say the least.
After all, the Europeans launched most of the Nilesat satellites with the "Araine rocket" - European civilian launch vehicles for space launch use.
So if Europe can put them up we can take them out if we have to, I guess, with a lot of politicking to get everyone agreed on it.
What with Britain's budget problems, not being able to afford to run an aircraft carrier etc, I would imagine that getting funding for a new British-only ASAT capability would be unlikely. If Britain wants its own ASAT weapons, chances are we would buy American.
But it would be strange for Britain to help manufacture, launch and control satellites for Egypt to broadcast Gaddafi TV on Nilesat then turn around to the Americans and buy American ASAT weapons to help dig us out of a hole which we dug ourselves into.
elbows
Well-Known Member
There are at least 2 aspects which seem to be completely missing from this stance.
The first is whether it is ever acceptable to deprive a state of its ability to communicate with its citizens.
The second is that the whole approach comes across as a desperate sign of weakness. The full reality of daily life in Tripoli for example is still pretty hard to ascertain, but it now seems likely that the regime is much stronger than intially thought, and I dont buy the idea that knocking out government tv channel is going to be the difference maker.
The first is whether it is ever acceptable to deprive a state of its ability to communicate with its citizens.
The second is that the whole approach comes across as a desperate sign of weakness. The full reality of daily life in Tripoli for example is still pretty hard to ascertain, but it now seems likely that the regime is much stronger than intially thought, and I dont buy the idea that knocking out government tv channel is going to be the difference maker.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Last week Amnesty International released a report about Libya after some months now of investigating the claims made by the rebels , Hilary Clinton , NATO , the ICC and others . It has observed that the NATO supported rebels have habitually made a varietyf of both exaggerated and downright false claims of crimes against humanity.
It claims that it has found absolutely no evidence that aircraft or any heavy weaponry were used against either demonstrators or funerals . This despite western and rebel claims of an ogngoing genocide . It found that while spent cartridges showed that Libyan troops certainly did open fire with small arms in locations in Benghazi and Baida , there was zero evidence of any artillery , aerial or anti aircraft bombardments of either demonstrators or funerals .
It also said it was unclear whether most of those killed in the early days of the uprising when these claims were made - 100-110 in Benghazi and a purported 59-64 in Baida - were ordinary demonstrators or armed rebels . The opposition looted arms depots right from the word go on Feb 15th and stared shooting .
Its also a bit unclear whether they were all even pro or anti ghadaffi , as amateur video from that period clearly shows captured ghadaffi supporters being shot out of hand in those areas . Bodies were also found in government installations , and its still unclear whether they were people taken to those places by the governemnt and killed or whether they were in there and killed when they were overrun by the rebels who were shooting people - and worse - out of hand and videoing it .
But one thing is abundantly clear , there was never anything remotely approaching genoicde taking place as has been constantly alleged.
They also found that supposed subsaharan africans paraded in front of the media as mercenaries were in fact ordinary migrant workers , who were often simply quietly deported from Libya afterwards and in other cases taken away and murdered . Donatella Rovera of Amnesty personally viewed the bodies of 2 migrant workers falsely accused of beuing mercenaries which had been dumped on the outskirts of Benghazi . Human Rights Watch had been highlighting this from the outset also ..
Amnesty also investigated in depth the claims , currently levelled against the Libyan leader by the ICC , of mass rape being used as a weapon and troops being issued with viagra in order to carry it out . When rebel forces presented what they claimed were sachets of viagra to Amnesty investiogators they were asked were they got it from . Their reply was from bodies on a nearby column of burned out tanks whuich had been adavncing on Benghazi . Amnesty observed that the purported viagra packets presented to them as evidence appeared to be strangely flame proof . There was absolutely no charring .
It then investigated the source of these claims further , interviewing 2 captured Libyan soldiers whod been put on televison by the rebels to admit theyd participated in the rape of a family . When interviewed seperately in seperate rooms by Donatella Rivera and another Amnesty colleague , both fluent in Arabic , their stories changed dramatically from the one theyd been forced to make to the TV camera by the rebels . The best they could come up with then was " they heard a rumour about a rape " .A rumour were the details differed widely between the 2 prisoners , as regards who was raped , how many were raped , what they were wearing , were they tied up or not , were their family present when it happened - very basic details that differed dramatically between the 2. A far cry from being ordered and forced to personally participate in this mass rape as theyd claimed at rebel urging to the cameras earlier .
Not only Amesty have found no evidence but neither has Human Rights Watch . Liesel Gernholtz , head of the womens rights department at HRW which also investigated these claims stated categorically last week" We have not been able to find any evidence"
Amnestys Donatella Rivera investigated even further and examined the strongest evidence presented to date . That of Libyan psychologist , Dr Seham Sergewa . Sergewa claims she distributed 70,000 questionaires throughout rebel held areas and along the Tunisian border and that 60,000 replies came back . She claimed 259 women reported beinng raped by troops , and that she interviewed 140 of them . But when Amnestys Libyan specialist Diana Eltahawy asked if she could speak to even a single one of them Sergewa then claimed she had " lost contact " with all those she had interviewed . Ms Eltahawy then pressed her for at least a review of her documentary evidence . Dr Sergewa then claimed she had lost all that too . So no physical evidence , no documentary evidence .
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html
Meanwhile France is opely flouting a UN embargo on weapons to Libya and airdropping arms and munitions into one side in ther middle of a civil war . This is outright imperialism .
It claims that it has found absolutely no evidence that aircraft or any heavy weaponry were used against either demonstrators or funerals . This despite western and rebel claims of an ogngoing genocide . It found that while spent cartridges showed that Libyan troops certainly did open fire with small arms in locations in Benghazi and Baida , there was zero evidence of any artillery , aerial or anti aircraft bombardments of either demonstrators or funerals .
It also said it was unclear whether most of those killed in the early days of the uprising when these claims were made - 100-110 in Benghazi and a purported 59-64 in Baida - were ordinary demonstrators or armed rebels . The opposition looted arms depots right from the word go on Feb 15th and stared shooting .
Its also a bit unclear whether they were all even pro or anti ghadaffi , as amateur video from that period clearly shows captured ghadaffi supporters being shot out of hand in those areas . Bodies were also found in government installations , and its still unclear whether they were people taken to those places by the governemnt and killed or whether they were in there and killed when they were overrun by the rebels who were shooting people - and worse - out of hand and videoing it .
But one thing is abundantly clear , there was never anything remotely approaching genoicde taking place as has been constantly alleged.
They also found that supposed subsaharan africans paraded in front of the media as mercenaries were in fact ordinary migrant workers , who were often simply quietly deported from Libya afterwards and in other cases taken away and murdered . Donatella Rovera of Amnesty personally viewed the bodies of 2 migrant workers falsely accused of beuing mercenaries which had been dumped on the outskirts of Benghazi . Human Rights Watch had been highlighting this from the outset also ..
Amnesty also investigated in depth the claims , currently levelled against the Libyan leader by the ICC , of mass rape being used as a weapon and troops being issued with viagra in order to carry it out . When rebel forces presented what they claimed were sachets of viagra to Amnesty investiogators they were asked were they got it from . Their reply was from bodies on a nearby column of burned out tanks whuich had been adavncing on Benghazi . Amnesty observed that the purported viagra packets presented to them as evidence appeared to be strangely flame proof . There was absolutely no charring .
It then investigated the source of these claims further , interviewing 2 captured Libyan soldiers whod been put on televison by the rebels to admit theyd participated in the rape of a family . When interviewed seperately in seperate rooms by Donatella Rivera and another Amnesty colleague , both fluent in Arabic , their stories changed dramatically from the one theyd been forced to make to the TV camera by the rebels . The best they could come up with then was " they heard a rumour about a rape " .A rumour were the details differed widely between the 2 prisoners , as regards who was raped , how many were raped , what they were wearing , were they tied up or not , were their family present when it happened - very basic details that differed dramatically between the 2. A far cry from being ordered and forced to personally participate in this mass rape as theyd claimed at rebel urging to the cameras earlier .
Not only Amesty have found no evidence but neither has Human Rights Watch . Liesel Gernholtz , head of the womens rights department at HRW which also investigated these claims stated categorically last week" We have not been able to find any evidence"
Amnestys Donatella Rivera investigated even further and examined the strongest evidence presented to date . That of Libyan psychologist , Dr Seham Sergewa . Sergewa claims she distributed 70,000 questionaires throughout rebel held areas and along the Tunisian border and that 60,000 replies came back . She claimed 259 women reported beinng raped by troops , and that she interviewed 140 of them . But when Amnestys Libyan specialist Diana Eltahawy asked if she could speak to even a single one of them Sergewa then claimed she had " lost contact " with all those she had interviewed . Ms Eltahawy then pressed her for at least a review of her documentary evidence . Dr Sergewa then claimed she had lost all that too . So no physical evidence , no documentary evidence .
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html
Meanwhile France is opely flouting a UN embargo on weapons to Libya and airdropping arms and munitions into one side in ther middle of a civil war . This is outright imperialism .
Is anyone here still disputing that?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I think you are missing the specific point I am trying to make. Possibly my fault. Let me try again.
Gaddafi, the man, and his sons, are in hiding, probably moving around, looking for safe places, disguised, in amongst civilians, in hospitals, a secret bunker in the desert. Looking for him is a nightmare.
Although NATO controls the skies over Libya and can bomb any place in Libya, we don't where Gaddafi and his sons are, so we don't know where to fire our missiles at to take Gaddafi out and win the war quickly.
But there is an answer, an easy way to win, even though we don't know where Gaddafi is!
Gaddafi keeps control by looking as if he is in control. He does that by appearances on Libyan state TV, which his loyalists control.
Now, in order for the Libyan people in Tripoli or wherever to tune in to Gaddafi-TV they need to point their aerials at the transmitter.
So everyone in Libya knows where the transmitter which is broadcasting Gaddafi TV is located at.
So Gaddafi's transmitter aerials and the radio-frequency amplifiers with their power supplies will be in one place and is the easiest target in the world for NATO to find and bomb and stop Gaddafi broadcasting his propaganda.
Now, OK, he has probably got a spare transmitter but again as soon as he starts broadcasting using the spare transmitter everyone knows where that is as well. So we can take out his spare transmitter as well.
So that is what I was suggesting when I posted earlier. I am pointing out that although NATO has bombed the TV studios that isn't necessarily where the transmitter is, so we need to take out the transmitter aerials.
So this is easy to do - take Gaddafi off the TV, much easier than trying to find him. But for some reason NATO has not properly taken out Gaddafi-TV.
He is still broadcasting. Every time we hear on our TV that "Colonel Gaddafi said in a report broadcast on Libyan state TV ..." - that is proof that NATO has not done its job right.
Gaddafi should not have a TV-station broadcasting his propaganda because NATO can hit the TV-transmitter aerials and associated equipment no problem at all.
So I am just posting to point out that NATO needs to get the finger out and get it done. The fact that they haven't done the obvious thing is a cause for us all to palm our face at NATO's ineptitude. FFS NATO!
As I posted earlier -
Now when you quoted me above I was talking about the same kind of thing.
But the "him" I was talking about was one of Gaddafi's TV propagandists. This guy here - "Yosif A. Shakeir"
Again though, we don't have to kill the actual guy to shut him up, all we have to do is take out the broadcasting transmitter, the same broadcasting transmitter which is broadcasting the rest of Libyan state TV under Gaddafi loyalist control.
I also made the point that if the Gaddafi regime announces it is holding a press conference in Tripoli then we can bomb that too. Of course, the international press corps would be well advised not to attend those press conferences in case they get killed too.
There is one simple point here - the Gaddafi regime has a public face out there in public, we know where it is, we know when it is there and so we can target it and drive the Gaddafi regime underground where it will be much less effective at keeping control.
you need carpet bombed with Lithium , tranquilliers and Diazepam you nut .
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