Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Kid_Eternity]

Eh it's Saif al-Islam Gaddafi' younger brother, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi is the one pictured above.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Most reports are clear that it's his youngest and not the 'progressive,ha' one rolled out for the media. I don't think killing his grand children (if true) is going to help matters, some tweeters are expecting condemnation from China and Russia tomorrow, i'm not sure but it doesn't play well.

You're right.

Even that one may not be dead.

It may be a publicity stunt. Don't believe it till we see it.

Way to get our hopes up!

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

isn't it weird that this thread went dead for almost a week, yet it i.e. bombs/war/etc all carried on and now some rumours of the death of saif are sufficient to kick it off again?

i think so anyway.

 

[OneStrike]

I suppose i am guilty of returning due to this latest headline grabber (as said above, assuming it's true). I do follow it daily through twitter but don't always feel that i have much to add. Theres a fair bit of suspicion that these deaths might be staged/fake to galvanise his support or to seek international dissaproval if the bombings. Time will tell.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

isn't it weird that this thread went dead for almost a week, yet it i.e. bombs/war/etc all carried on and now some rumours of the death of saif are sufficient to kick it off again?

i think so anyway.

I'm not sure what's weird about that, there hasn't been as big news as this from what I can see...either that or the sheer deluge of Royal wedding crap has meant we haven't a clue..?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I suppose i am guilty of returning due to this latest headline grabber (as said above, assuming it's true). I do follow it daily through twitter but don't always feel that i have much to add. Theres a fair bit of suspicion that these deaths might be staged/fake to galvanise his support or to seek international dissaproval if the bombings. Time will tell.

Good point about following news elsewhere...

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I'm not sure what's weird about that, there hasn't been as big news as this from what I can see...either that or the sheer deluge of Royal wedding crap has meant we haven't a clue..?

you don't think the UK being at war with a relatively major north african state is "big news"...really?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

i'm not having a go, it was a simple observation that intrigued me.you don't think the UK being at war with a relatively major north african state is "big news"...really?

It's big news in a general sense but you know how the media tends to be...I haven't really posted much on here tbh but I follow a number of Arab/ME people on Twitter and keep up generally with news from Libya along with most of the North Africa/ ME uprising stuff...

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

It's big news in a general sense but you know how the media tends to be...I haven't really posted much on here tbh but I follow a number of Arab/ME people on Twitter and keep up generally with news from Libya along with most of the North Africa/ ME uprising stuff...

thats what i mean tho, its notable simply for the fact of how what is/should be such a major event is subsumed by 24-hour news, social media and short attention spans and can become background noise essentially. very convenient for arms producing/oil consuming nations.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

thats what i mean tho, its notable simply for the fact of how what is/should be such a major event is subsumed by 24-hour news, social media and short attention spans and can become background noise essentially. very convenient for arms producing/oil consuming nations.

Well I find in terms of social media the coverage is there, the attention and seriousness of all the news is there...the chatterati in the UK and media in general however are another story. My thing is not to focus on the political classes in the UK but to find people close to or connected with the countries these things are happening in and follow their insights and news sharing. Oh and watch Al Jazeera over BBC etc.

 

[twentythreedom]

Can anyone recommend any twitter feeds from libya that are really worth following please?

 

[peterkro]

http://twitter.com/#!/shabablibya

 

[Riklet]

http://www.libyafeb17.com/ Is a good site for daily updates (and has twitter stuff up too), I find myself checking it most days. Was pretty surprised at 'bumping' the Libya thread but I never feel I have much to add normally, I just like reading.

Anyone else seen footage from Misratah the past week with some captured Gadaffi soldiers? They had to be taken to secret locations/hospitals to stop people baying for blood. Some were from Sudan, n some properly young Libyans, only 17 or something. A couple of them seemed to have been shot in the foot to stop them running away...

 

[ernestolynch]

http://twitter.com/#!/shabablibya

Royalist ex-pats.

Well done Prince Kropotkin LOL.

 

[ernestolynch]

http://www.libyafeb17.com/ Is a good site for daily updates (and has twitter stuff up too), I find myself checking it most days. Was pretty surprised at 'bumping' the Libya thread but I never feel I have much to add normally, I just like reading.

Anyone else seen footage from Misratah the past week with some captured Gadaffi soldiers? They had to be taken to secret locations/hospitals to stop people baying for blood. Some were from Sudan, n some properly young Libyans, only 17 or something. A couple of them seemed to have been shot in the foot to stop them running away...

Know who runs that site do you?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Was this the one that was featured in the Panorama documentary on the Benghazi uprising?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

No it's not that was his third son

 

[Divisive Cotton]

There's apparently a translation of a Gadaffi snipers diary from Mistrata on the Times site which is worth a read

So I paid a £1... the search facility doesn't work and the one article that I wanted to read only produces a white screen of death when I click on the link

Times pay wall - epic fail

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I've got it now here it is:

It starts with the hope that victory for Muammar Gadaffi over the rebel “scum” of Misrata can be achieved within 24 hours. By the end, 12 days later, fear and exhaustion have taken hold as the casualty toll rises and ammunition runs low.

A remarkable account of the battle for Misrata, the besieged port city, has emerged in a 152-page diary kept by a Libyan army officer and recovered from a building he and his troops were forced to abandon when the rebels routed Gadaffi’s forces last weekend.

Jamal Muftah al-Warfalli, the diarist, is a fanatical loyalist in charge of about 10 men. He compares Gadaffi to an eagle and calls his opponents “rats”.

Such is his confidence in his snipers’ ability at the outset that he finds time to fuss over cooking and cleaning in their makeshift base, an apartment block in the Tripoli Street area at the heart of the city.

But Warfalli’s contempt for his enemy proves misplaced. One by one, four of his men are wounded. His supply lines are cut and escape routes blocked.

The diary, neatly handwritten in a hardback notebook obtained by The Sunday Times, is the first description of the fighting from one of Gadaffi’s soldiers.

It portrays a disorganised force, poorly equipped and trained, confronted by tenacious rebels exploiting their knowledge of their home city.

The account begins as Gadaffi’s army takes up positions in the centre of Misrata, the only rebel stronghold in the west of Libya.


Sunday, April 10, 2011
Warfalli’s men clean the apartments they have occupied. He prepares a rice meal for them and divides them into shifts.

“One of the rats disturbs us by firing bullets at us — so weak it is as if they came from a tame dog. The flash of the muzzle was far away. The enemy is hiding himself.”

Monday, April 11
After eggs and coffee, they store enough provisions for a month.

“We asked our colleagues to help us to unload the food from the car but most of them are too lazy because it’s so heavy and we have to get it up to the third floor. I say the dawn prayer.

“In my heart there is a hope that the victory will be by next sunrise.”

Tuesday, April 12
The men steal a car for what they expect to be a triumphant return to Tripoli. “I covered the cassette player with a piece of cotton, a green one to show that I am so faithful to Gadaffi, as all the guys are ... [We are] shooting from everywhere against unknown targets.”

Wednesday, April 13
There are rumours that Gadaffi’s son Mutassim is bringing his militia to Misrata to bolster the loyalist forces.

“Abdel Fatah al-Sarir saw one rat near the building. Everybody prepares their rifles, aiming for the rats, and goes quiet as we walk along the street in the dark.

“Khalifa curses the rats out loud, and somebody elbows him to shut him up but the rat hears him and runs away, down a damn alleyway. Everyone yells at Khalifa, screaming in his face.”

Later: “The sound of aircraft scares us. Maybe we will be betrayed when one of our colleagues goes to the rebels and gives away our position to the Nato. Every time, I pray and read the Holy Koran.”

Thursday, April 14
“At 11am, rockets start hitting our building. More rats are moving in to shoot us. We are firing directly at each other from just across the street.

“Our building has become the command and control centre, responsible for three buildings. Just before sundown, we look out of the window and we see two vans filled by new individuals from Tripoli. We are happy when we see these reinforcements because we are losing guys.”

Abdullah al-Warfalli, a sniper from the writer’s tribe, arrives with the troops. “[He] tells me about the continuous bombing in Tripoli, and says Gadaffi drives around the streets during the bombing. We talk about how brave [Gadaffi] is. There has been no one like him in more than 100 years.

“The Garagra [men from a southern area] who were with me have deserted ... There is now continuous bombing and shooting at our building.

“Mashai [one of Warfalli’s men] succeeded in shooting one of the rats. The force of the bullet blew him up into air before it killed him, and left him on the ground swimming in blood. Mashai is very happy. The guys watched the body for a long time.”

Friday, April 15
“We got the news that Abdullah [another soldier] was injured crossing the street controlled by our forces ... He is in Salata hospital in Tripoli.

“Al-Arifi al-Sharif [a third man] was hit for the second time, in his shoulder and his foot. I’m really impressed by his bravery. When he felt he was getting better he joined us again, and he was shot again but he is still enthusiastic.”

Later: “The rats start firing again at sunset. Abdullah al-Warfalli, who is the sniper, and his assistant, Muftah Warfalli, were in their places in the stairwell and they were firing. Jamal, another assistant, was hit by shrapnel . . .

“Jamal said he saw rats climbing a building, and he was shooting at them but they were our colleagues! He said to me, ‘Why didn’t you tell me that building belongs to us?’

“I said, ‘I told you last night when I summoned you to tell you the instructions about your posts, and you clearly were not listening’.”

Saturday, April 16
“Our people had the utmost enthusiasm to attack, and they were firing machineguns and RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades] from all sides to distract the rats. The sniper Abdullah shot one of the rats who peeped over a roof. Our guys considered this a new victory — to kill someone.

“I saw lights so overwhelming that night became day. I became frightened ... I thought this is the beginning of the bombardment.”

Sunday, April 17
The loyalist troops discover that the rebels have cut their supply road. “I heard the voice of Sunni calling me. He told me that the rats had blocked the road where our building is and the road our army vehicles use. He told me the rats had destroyed a tank, and that they forced one of our army posts to flee. At night there was silence after the scum blocked the road.”

Monday, April 18
“We cannot communicate with the armed forces because of the blocked roads. Some of the traitors, and those who spread the irresponsible rumours, say that the army has retreated. I speak harshly to anyone who speaks these things in our group.”

Warfalli writes of “a spectacular night, one I will never forget. We were fired on by saboteurs with RPGs. A rocket came into the neighbouring apartment. The rocket destroyed a window and the things in the apartment, and the machinegun emplacement. Muftah was nearly hit as he rescued ammunition from the weapons room.

“The room above us with al-Khair, who was using the machinegun, was hit. The rats used a car backing up, firing a 14.5-calibre machinegun. I suggested that we destroy it with a rocket, but no one had any enthusiasm for this mission.

“Hussein said that he forgot where he put the rockets, the same as when he forgot where he put his machinegun. Issa was lying on his side in a careless way, and he got shrapnel on his leg from what I believe to be a locally made rocket.

“At this point, I decided to try using the RPG. One of the guys explained how to use it. As I expected, it was simple. Strangely, I did not feel any fear inside me. I moved to the wall on the edge of the roof of the building, and I shot my rocket on the place where I thought was the source of the enemy fire. Then I heard the explosion and I was proud of what I did.”

The entry finishes on a note of desperation. “The ammunition for the rocket has finished, we have no more rockets, our machinegun is jammed because it was very old, and the enemy has found the place of our sniper Abdullah and they started shooting at him and forced him to come down to us.

“We were in a situation that no one would wish to be in. The third floor was burning ... The heat from the fire made the building like a bakery. The rats continued saying Allahu Akbar [God is great], and cursing, and threatening us.”

Tuesday, April 19
“Ejaidi and Muftah came, under the cover of machinegun fire, to take Hamza and Issa for treatment ... The two brought food, drink and ammunition ... This boosted our morale.

“We refrained from shooting whatever we see because the aircraft might see our hiding place and think we are trying to shoot them down.”

Wednesday, April 20
“Morale is low ... Al-Khair, my friend, admitted that he lost control of his feet when we were attacked last night. One rat dropped a flag ... We burned the miserable piece of cloth the rats consider the flag of Libya.”

Thursday, April 21
“Everyone is asleep after 9am. Even Ahmed who was supposed to be on a shift with Mousa was asleep ... Maybe they are pretending.”

The diary ends inconclusively. The day after Warfalli stopped writing, the rebels began a ferocious assault on the eastern end of the three-mile boulevard, forcing the loyalists out of one building at a time. Four days after the final entry, Gadaffi’s troops were driven from central Misrata.

Warfalli’s fate is not known.

 

[ernestolynch]

Thanks for printing some Murdoch propaganda. Do you have Hitler's Diaries too?

MUG

 

[OneStrike]

Lybyan4life have just tweeted what they claim state tv have been running as footage of Saif's funeral. I know next to nothing about religion but is that a priest in the room? He looks a bit priesty to me.

Of course there is no way of knowing who the corpses are without seeing them.



Edited to add, i was interested to know what they might be trying to portray by having those of various faiths in attendance.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

So that means there two less sons now?

 

[Greebozz]

I feel in some way like a murderer.

 

[Casually Red]

I suppose i am guilty of returning due to this latest headline grabber (as said above, assuming it's true). I do follow it daily through twitter but don't always feel that i have much to add. Theres a fair bit of suspicion that these deaths might be staged/fake to galvanise his support or to seek international dissaproval if the bombings. Time will tell.

a fair bit of suspicion from who ? A bunch of pro NATO pricks supporting the war against Libya ? The same people who were claiming Ghadaffi was decorating NATO bomb sites with dead bodies he'd been keeping in freezers ? That babies killed in the air strikes were glad to be blown up ?

Hardly a fucking surprise is it ?

 

[Casually Red]

It starts with the hope that victory for Muammar Gadaffi over the rebel “scum” of Misrata can be achieved within 24 hours.



Monday, April 11
After eggs and coffee, they store enough provisions for a month.

righto, fucking einstein

 

[Casually Red]

Most reports are clear that it's his youngest and not the 'progressive,ha' one rolled out for the media. I don't think killing his grand children (if true) is going to help matters, some tweeters are expecting condemnation from China and Russia tomorrow, i'm not sure but it doesn't play well.

they are supposed to be enforcing a no fly zone . These children were not flying MIGS when they were ripped to pieces by NATO bombs .

 

[Casually Red]

You are pretty craven. Did you attach yourself to the biggest bully at school and laugh at all his jokes too?

the biggest bully in this instance would happen to be NATO , not a tiny North African country thats virtually defenceless against their airpower . Fuck knows what school you were at if you cant spot that .

 

[OneStrike]

a fair bit of suspicion from who ? A bunch of pro NATO pricks supporting the war against Libya ? The same people who were claiming Ghadaffi was decorating NATO bomb sites with dead bodies he'd been keeping in freezers ? That babies killed in the air strikes were glad to be blown up ?

Hardly a fucking surprise is it ?

You know no more than I or anyone else not directly involved, i didn't suggest anything as fact. I don't think that i am taking NATO's side by thinking the facts are cloudy and that Gadaffi has in the past 40 years used propaganda.

 

[OneStrike]

they are supposed to be enforcing a no fly zone . These children were not flying MIGS when they were ripped to pieces by NATO bombs .

It reeks of mission creep, i need to check on the most recent NATO briefings but i don't recall a sanctioned escalation, though there have been a lot of distractions in the news lately, maybe i missed it. Btw, i am becoming increasingly suspicious of everyone concerned's intentions so please don't assume i am blindly in favour of the rebels, it gets cloudier each day from my perspective.

 

[Casually Red]

Quite. He has backing from Algeria and Chad - wow. He's sitting on a lake of oil that he can't sell to anybody.

for fucks sake , he can sell oil to whoever he likes

It's only a matter of time before he runs out of money and there's no way he'll be able to smuggle out oil in breach of the embargo.

he's also sitting on billions upon billions of gold futures - currently jumping in value to 7 percent .

What happened in Vietnam was part of a world-wide anti-colonial struggle that took place in every continent. The Vietnamese victory has to be read in that context.

its still taking place , hence the support from anti colonial governments in Nicaragua , Venezuela , Bolivia and Ecuador . Not to mention much of the African continent , a pretty big place . And like Vietnam he has the support of Russia and China too . Context seems to elude you .

Gaddafi and his family - has been pointed out by Dylans repeatedly on this thread - are going against the grain of history and one which is currently being written in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen and Bahrain.

or Iraq .
BTW havent all the regimes youve mentioned expelled Libya from the Arab League ? Libyas history is being written by imperialist airforces and imperialist governments and nothing else .

Gadaffi is finished. It's now only a question of how determined he is to bring the rest of country down with him - or if those near to him will let him do so

you lot have been saying he's finished even before he got to Venezuela for fucks sake . He's still there .