Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Deareg]

Well, yea. Some of the most viscious tyrants retain power decade after decade because they are clever at control, not because they have support of their people.

And many more survive because they have the support of the U.S.

 

[ernestolynch]

China and Russia may well continue to supply arms through one route or another , I'd be very surprised if they didnt . The latin american leftists seem quite prepared to offer diplomatic support to varying degrees . Africans too remian pretty supportive . While divorced from the Arab league he's not exactly what you'd call isolated . And very much in there alive and kicking .
It must be emphasised again though without pretty solid support from his own population and army he'd have been toast long ago .

.

 

[gosub]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mounting-evidence-of-rebel-atrocities-in-libya/

 

[LLETSA]

Hard to judge if the support is genuine or just the regime has a good control
on its population.

Sometimes the line between the two is blurred. There are probably more dictatorships with one degree or another of mass support than completely isolated dictatorships relying on naked repression. That's why people serve these kind of regimes. Who knows when coercion becomes acceptance, or where acceptance becomes real support? Or vice-versa?

 

[dylanredefined]

Iraqes kept going on about Iraq needed a strong man to rule the country when I was there,but,then they never had any other form of government.And also a lot
of people will be tied to the regime one way or the other and if it falls their doomed.

 

[dylans]

The analogy you used is so stuffed full of meanings (some of which are not at all useful e.g. Gaddafi=Ho Chi Minh or Libya+proxy war), that in the context of arguing an anti-war position (a context in which Vietnam is iconic) it is on balance probably more trouble than it's worth. I did the same sort of thing over on one of the AV threads and afforded the pro-AVers something of an own goal. You'd be better off sticking to talking about mission creep - which is definitely on the cards - than invoking unruly ghosts, or for that matter calling the BBC and Vince Cable to your aid.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Yes. On reflection I think you're probably right. Your point is made made and your warning is well noted and respected

 

[TomUS]

And many more survive because they have the support of the U.S.

Yes, and.............?

 

[TomUS]

McCain is in Benghazi now. Normally I think he's a trigger happy nut. In this case though I agreee with him. Time to give the rebs all the help they need to overthrow the crazy G man.

 

[Deareg]

Yes, and.............?

You tell me.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

They've managed to clear out the snipers from one of the tower blocks in Misrata. They've been trying to flush them out of this position for weeks now:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/22/libya-syria-middle-east-misrata-gaddafi#block-11

11.17am: I've had another chat with Xan Rice in Misrata, who has further, significant news on a rebel success in the city (see 9.35am).

Xan has been to see the badly-damaged eight-storey office block where, until yesterday, a large number of pro-Gaddafi snipers were holed up, terrorising the population from the city's highest vantage point. After rebels finally pushed the snipers out, Xan saw what they left behind, namely "thousands" of bullet casings, discarded uniforms and, chillingly, graffiti promising never to forgive the city's people and to return and punish them. He adds:

This has been the main objective of the rebels – to get these guys out of this building and surrounding buildings... this is a pretty big thing.

There's quite an inspiring piece as well about the guerrilla tactics they have adopted in Misrata:

"We kicked out all of Gaddafi's people, who fled to Tripoli," said Mohamed Karwad, a 23-year-old graphic designer, who was one of the first protesters to be arrested. "At that time we had nothing but rocks and Molotov cocktails." When Gaddafi's forces returned two weeks later it was with tanks and armoured vehicles. The rebels still had few proper weapons, but they had taken measures to prevent the city from falling. They blocked the main streets with shipping containers full of sand and metal, preventing the tanks from passing though. They laid down blankets soaked in diesel that became caught in the tanks' tracks. A Molotov cocktail heaved from a sidestreet would then set the tank alight. Mosques played recordings of "God is Great" over and over to inspire the rebel fighters, infuriating Gaddafi's forces. Many mosques have since been hit by shells.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/21/libyan-rebels-heavy-price-misrata

 

[TomUS]

You tell me.

Tell you what? You made the comment.

And many more survive because they have the support of the U.S.

This is true. What's your point? You don't think the US & NATO should be aiding the rebs because it's hypocritical?

 

[weltweit]

What is McCain's agenda in Benghazi?

 

[RhymnRzn]

^wee-pawns salezmon?

 

[Streathamite]

You don't think the US & NATO should be aiding the rebs because it's hypocritical?

we cdertainly shouldn't be aiding them - beyond advice, humanitarian assistance, and possibly the no-fly zone because it's imperialism, pure and simple. this is the libyans strugle, and irt will only work out long-term if they do it for the most part by themselves. we in the west have got toget out of our nasty habit of reordering the rest of the world to suit our pleasure

 

[Divisive Cotton]

We shouldn't be directly aiding them with weapons or putting boots on the ground. Although if they have money to spend they should be allowed to buy their own equipment.

I do believe though Misrata should receive a consignment of non-lethal equipment from the EU including body armour and field radios as a matter of emergency as well as the usual humanitarian aid

 

[Streathamite]

It must be emphasised again though without pretty solid support from his own population and army he'd have been toast long ago .

what, so the popular uprising that started all of this was simply a mass hallucination on our part, or a fiendish western plot? because otherwise I think you'd be wiser to say "part of his army and part of the population" - in which case, the same goes for just about every tyrant in history. They cling on by keeping certain interest blocs sweet

 

[TomUS]

What is McCain's agenda in Benghazi?

Says NATO should step up military aid & provide close air support. Says the rebs aren't AQ but if there's a stalemate it could lead to Islamic fundamentalism. That last part sounds loony toons. Maybe he honestly believes in the reb's cause. Maybe he just wants attention. He's always attracted to war.

 

[Deareg]

Tell you what? You made the comment.

This is true. What's your point? You don't think the US & NATO should be aiding the rebs because it's hypocritical?

There aim is not to help the rebels, that is just a convenient smokescreen, they aim is to help themselves to Libya's oil.

 

[Lock&Light]

There aim is not to help the rebels, that is just a convenient smokescreen, they aim is to help themselves to Libya's oil.

Why do you think that when Gaddafi was quite prepared to let them have it anyway?

 

[Deareg]

Why do you think that when Gaddafi was quite prepared to let them have it anyway?

History.

 

[TomUS]

There aim is not to help the rebels, that is just a convenient smokescreen, they aim is to help themselves to Libya's oil.

They were already helping themselves to Libya's oil. Western oil cos had lots of contracts for that oil. If the aim was to get the oil, the West would be supporting Gaddafi. Why would the West disrupt a lucrative relationship with him by siding with a ragtag bunch of rebels in a rebellion where the outcome is so uncertain? It makes no business sense.

 

[weltweit]

They were already helping themselves to Libya's oil. Western oil cos had lots of contracts for that oil. If the aim was to get the oil, the West would be supporting Gaddafi. Why would the West disrupt a lucrative relationship with him by siding with a ragtag bunch of rebels in a rebellion where the outcome is so uncertain? It makes no business sense.

I agree ..

 

[Lock&Light]

History.

History has never been easy to predict.

 

[Deareg]

They were already helping themselves to Libya's oil. Western oil cos had lots of contracts for that oil. If the aim was to get the oil, the West would be supporting Gaddafi. Why would the West disrupt a lucrative relationship with him by siding with a ragtag bunch of rebels in a rebellion where the outcome is so uncertain? It makes no business sense.

Because installing your own puppet government is an American tradition.

 

[Deareg]

History has never been easy to predict.

I have found it very easy so far with Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[dylans]

I have found it very easy so far with Iraq and Afghanistan.

And in Uraguay, Philippines, Puerto Rico, Iran, Panama, Grenada, Vietnam. Lao, Cambodia, Lebanion, Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Indonesia, Oman, Chile, Libya (1981), Honduras, Bolivia, Somalia, Serbia, Haiti, Congo, Sudan, Yemen, Colombia, Syria, and Pakistan.

But none of that matters. This time. THIS TIME, they are there for freedom and democracy. They have changed. They promise

 

[MellySingsDoom]

McCain is in Benghazi now. Normally I think he's a trigger happy nut. In this case though I agreee with him. Time to give the rebs all the help they need to overthrow the crazy G man.

Brilliant. Gaddafi must think Xmas has come early for him (yeah OK, I know he doesn't celebrate Xmas, but you get me point). What next, Tony Blair turns up with Dubya to give moral support? With "friends" like these, Gaddafi can say "Western Crusader quislings" about his opposition, and job done.

Let's hope a bit of NATO friendly fire takes out McCain...

 

[ernestolynch]

There aim is not to help the rebels, that is just a convenient smokescreen, they aim is to help themselves to Libya's oil.

It's not just the oil this time, Libya has a strong public sector and mineral resources which are nationalised. Just like Yugoslavia, the markets want it all.

 

[phildwyer]

They were already helping themselves to Libya's oil. Western oil cos had lots of contracts for that oil. If the aim was to get the oil, the West would be supporting Gaddafi. Why would the West disrupt a lucrative relationship with him by siding with a ragtag bunch of rebels in a rebellion where the outcome is so uncertain? It makes no business sense.

They want the oıl on theır own terms, and at theır own prıce. But more ımportantly, Gaddafı ıs an enemy of Israel.

 

[phildwyer]

what, so the popular uprising that started all of this was simply a mass hallucination on our part, or a fiendish western plot?

Yep, a bıt of both.