Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Deareg]

No, you don't get off that lightly. What would you have the UN do about the civil war right now in Libya in which the Gaddafi regime is slaughtering its opponents and the rebels are asking for outside help?

What previous governments have sanctioned in respect of the Gaddafi regime, including training and BP oil deals and releasing Abdel Bassett Ali Al Megrahi, is history, what the UN allies have to deal with is what is happening today, now.



This is being done by the international community under the auspices of the UN, for the benefit of the Libyan people, to balance the forces in favour of the rebels, and to rid the Libyan people and the region of a much hated dictator.

It is Libya's internal problem, and we only have the West's media word for what is happening, I have yet to see footage of slaughtered Libyans despite having followed this on numerous TV news stations there are far more serious conflicts taking place around the world that we are showing no interest in intervening, why are you not calling for UN intervention in Bahrain after Saudi and UAE military invaded?

This is being done by the international community for the sake of the oil and for no other reason.

 

[elbows]

Did I hear a report that the rebels may have shot down their own plane ?

Yes.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Lol 2

 

[weltweit]

...
This is being done by the international community for the sake of the oil and for no other reason.

What rubbish, France, Spain and Italy have been buying significant volumes of Libyan oil from Gaddafi for years, there was never a problem getting oil out of Gaddafi's Libya. However, for your info, Libya only accounts for 2% of oil production.

 

[weltweit]

Libya no-fly zone: Gaddafi's forces and rebels are hard to tell apart from the air
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/19/libya-no-fly-zone-gaddafi

No one wants to make a mistake and have innocent civilian deaths on their hands, but nobody wants another Srebrenica
...
It is not yet clear what the resolution term "all means necessary" will entail: will aircraft be authorised to attack Gaddafi's forces on the ground and the military command and control structure? This would be a huge escalation of Nato involvement.

Srebrenica was a classic example of when enemy forces are allowed to go about their bloody business unimpeded, as 8,000 civilians, mostly men and boys, were murdered by Bosnian Serbs, and 25,000 to 30,000 refugees ethnically cleansed. My UN colleagues, on the ground and in the air, sat by as it happened.

But in Libya, giving Nato or UN aircraft the authority to attack Gaddafi forces will produce unique problems: many are not using easily identifiable military equipment, and trying to distinguish friend from foe will be immensely challenging.

Some of the challenges of enforcing Resolution 1973

 

[Deareg]

What rubbish, France, Spain and Italy have been buying significant volumes of Libyan oil from Gaddafi for years, there was never a problem getting oil out of Gaddafi's Libya. However, for your info, Libya only accounts for 2% of oil production.

For fucks sake, we gain a further foothold by establishing another puppet government in the middle east.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I didn't realise there was so many Colonel Gaddafi supporters on U75... they kept quiet up until now! I suppose before it was their dirty little secret

 

[Deareg]

I didn't realise there was so many Colonel Gaddafi supporters on U75... they kept quiet up until now! I suppose before it was their dirty little secret

Just because someone is opposed to Western empire building in Libya that does not make them pro Gaddafy.

 

[Steel Icarus]

0 1

 

[Divisive Cotton]

They BBC seem to be bringing out every old retired duffer in the British Army to offer comment

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Just because someone is opposed to Western empire building in Libya that does not make them pro Gaddafy.

It seems quite clear what side you are on:

Hope to fuck that the Libyans shoot down a couple of jets.

Maybe you should organise an International Brigade to go to Libya to fight imperialism and support Gaddafi

 

[goldenecitrone]

Just because someone is opposed to Western empire building in Libya that does not make them pro Gaddafy.

You're hoping that Gaddafy's lot shoot down western planes. That sounds pretty pro-Gaddafy to me.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Reports that they've hit the capital

great "balls of fire" in the east

 

[Yossarian]

I didn't realise there was so many Colonel Gaddafi supporters on U75... they kept quiet up until now! I suppose before it was their dirty little secret

Was your previous username 'pbman'?

 

[dylans]

Go on then, illuminate me, what would you have the United Nations do?

nothing. this is not our war

 

[dylans]

I didn't realise there was so many Colonel Gaddafi supporters on U75... they kept quiet up until now! I suppose before it was their dirty little secret

Did you oppose the invasion of Iraq? If so you are stinking filthy Saddam supporting Baathist apologist for mass murder. What about the marsh Arabs, what about the Kurds, what about Hallabja. Think of the children etc etc etc.

This is EXACTLY the argument that was used to smear those of us who opposed the Iraq war. We were right then and we are right now. Where is the democracy in Iraq? In a years time we will be asking the same question about Libya..

 

[Deareg]

It seems quite clear what side you are on:



Maybe you should organise an International Brigade to go to Libya to fight imperialism and support Gaddafi

You're hoping that Gaddafy's lot shoot down western planes. That sounds pretty pro-Gaddafy to me.

The reason for wanting to see the West get a bloody nose in Libya is quite simple, we are far less likely to interfere or invade other countries, so along with wanting to see UN jets get shot down I wish the Libyan people well in there fight for democracy, a fight that has suffered a setback now that the West have seized the opportunity to set up a puppet government.

 

[likesfish]

getting gadaffi into the international community was the least worst option her gave up his nerve gas factory and stopped supplying terrorists and african headcases.
unfortunatly thats gone by the wayside now.
giving the libyan rebels air support to get rid of this murderous clown is in the planets best intrest should have done that for the shias in 1992.
he's a tryant he's isolated killing or destroying his regime is a good thing.

 

[teqniq]

Reports that they've hit the capital

great "balls of fire" in the east

That'll be the cruise missiles that are being tweeted about:

BreakingNews Breaking News
by moftasa
U.S. warship launches cruise missiles against Libya - CNN

oh and just confirmed on R4

 

[likesfish]

light weapons against tanks thats always going to end one way.
light weapons against whats left after a spot of shock and awe thats a diffrent matter

 

[weltweit]

The reason for wanting to see the West get a bloody nose in Libya is quite simple, we are far less likely to interfere or invade other countries, so along with wanting to see UN jets get shot down I wish the Libyan people well in there fight for democracy, a fight that has suffered a setback now that the West have seized the opportunity to set up a puppet government.

Ridiculous!

You can't be pro the Libyan fight for democracy and not pro UN action. Without the UNSC Resolution 1973 and resulting action Gaddafi would have snuffed out the fight for democracy already!

 

[dylans]

getting gadaffi into the international community was the least worst option her gave up his nerve gas factory and stopped supplying terrorists and african headcases.
unfortunatly thats gone by the wayside now.
giving the libyan rebels air support to get rid of this murderous clown is in the planets best intrest should have done that for the shias in 1992.
he's a tryant he's isolated killing or destroying his regime is a good thing.

I will have an ounce of respect for this hypocritical bollocks when i see you calling for western airstrikes in Israel, Yemen and Saudi Arabia

 

[Combustible]

Western hypocrisy and cynical motivations in itself do not provide an argument against the specific aerial intervention now being made. Unless anyone can demonstrate an amazing piece of western and world media deceit then it appears Gaddafi has pushed back the rebels attacking civilian populations in the process. Those who are opposed to intervention yet are not Gaddafi apologists and support the rebels need to answer by what feasible means can these fortunes be reversed and attacks on civilian populations prevented. They also need to explain why what appears to be a clear consensus amongst rebels for foreign aerial intervention should be ignored and why they are being asked to be slaughtered by Gaddafi instead.

And rather than firing off general statements that any intervention must be about controlling Libyan oil alone and repeating that Gaddafi must be overthrown by the people's hands alone like an ultra-left catechism why not explain by what means the current intervention leads to western domination of Libya. As far as I can tell the only sensible argument is that if the rebels win with western aerial support they are likely to establish friendlier relations with the west. So you are then essentially making the argument that 'the rebels should fall on Gaddafi's sword lest they be too grateful to the west in the event of victory', which isn't a very appealing argument.

 

[teqniq]

sarcasm mode

I am truly at a loss as to how cruise missiles fit into a 'no-fly' zone.

/sarcasm mode

on a more serious note they're probably trying to kill Gadhaffi. Expect collateral damage reports.

ah no I stand corrected:

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Breaking Al Jazeera: Pentagon: Strikes against air defenses of Gaddafi #Libya

 

[free spirit]

Did you oppose the invasion of Iraq? If so you are stinking filthy Saddam supporting Baathist apologist for mass murder. What about the marsh Arabs, what about the Kurds, what about Hallabja. Think of the children etc etc etc.

This is EXACTLY the argument that was used to smear those of us who opposed the Iraq war. We were right then and we are right now. Where is the democracy in Iraq? In a years time we will be asking the same question about Libya..

sorry but there is no comparison between this and the Iraq situation - at least not the situation as it existed when we attacked Iraq (as opposed to the introduction of the no fly zone there)

compare and contrast

In Libya a significant portion of the country has risen up to try to overthrow gadafi, is running a significant part of the country, is under military attack from Gadafi's forces, has been forced out of several areas they'd previously taken over, and have urgently been appealing for outside assistance to prevent Gadafi slaughtering them.

In Iraq no such situation existed prior to the war, and the examples you give were more than a decade old, not current activities that could be prevented by action in the here and now.

In this situation the action is specifically authorised by a UN resolution, and is compliant with international law. In Iraq it wasn't.

etc

 

[quimcunx]

Ridiculous!

You can't be pro the Libyan fight for democracy and not pro UN action. Without the UNSC Resolution 1973 and resulting action Gaddafi would have snuffed out the fight for democracy already!

We'll never know now, will we. They've got NFZ whether they want it or not, and not all Libyans asked for it.

And now we do have a NFZ I hope that the western govts' aspirations only go as far as being rid of Gaddafi and that western forces give just enough assistance to the rebels to allow them to prevail then get the fuck out of Libya's business and let them sort out their own country's post-gaddafi direction.

But then I also hope that Gaddafi's tanks turn into marshmallow teddy bears which spit out sugar petals instead of shells. It's about as likely.

 

[Lock&Light]

Did I hear a report that the rebels may have shot down their own plane ?

Try to keep up.

 

[Deareg]

Ridiculous!

You can't be pro the Libyan fight for democracy and not pro UN action. Without the UNSC Resolution 1973 and resulting action Gaddafi would have snuffed out the fight for democracy already!

Yes I can and do.

And with the UNSC resolutions, what about all the resolutions that the Israelis continue to ignore? Why have we not intervened on behalf of the Palestinians? What about the people of Bahrain? they too are demanding democracy and are being killed and brutalised as well as being invaded by not one but two foreign countries, Where do you stand on this issue? Do you support the UN intervening in Bahrain too

 

[binka]

i dont think anyone here is particularly comfortable with the west bombing yet another country but im even less comfortable with what will happen if or when gadafi finally takes benghazi. the best thing to hope for i suppose is that blowing up most of his big weapons will make some saner people in the regime force gadafi out.

 

[Lock&Light]

What rubbish, France, Spain and Italy have been buying significant volumes of Libyan oil from Gaddafi for years, there was never a problem getting oil out of Gaddafi's Libya. However, for your info, Libya only accounts for 2% of oil production.

I, at least, am still aware of the truth of what you are saying.