Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Deareg]

What a brave man the Colonel is by hiding behind unarmed civilians

By all accounts he is a complete cunt.

 

[weltweit]

I saw on the news thousands of his supporters surrounding his compound and offering themselves as human shields in the way the Serbs did so he has no need of hostages.

But the point of rounding up the families of those likely to defect was / is to keep his military on side.

 

[dylans]

But the point of rounding up the families of those likely to defect was / is to keep his military on side.

Sounds like propaganda to me. Like mercenaries

 

[Lock&Light]

If it wasn't believable it would be useless propaganda.

 

[dylans]

If you are in a house, and you are well armed, if robbers come to your unarmed neighbours house and starts raping pillaging and murduring them, I think you have a duty to do something about it! to go and protect your neighbour..

Oh you mean like in Gaza?

 

[Deareg]

But the point of rounding up the families of those likely to defect was / is to keep his military on side.

Try watching news outlets other that western ones, you will get a much better idea of what is actually happening.

 

[Lock&Light]

Oh you mean like in Gaza?

Why not mention Tibet?
Or Burma?
Or Zimbabwe?

This thread is about Libya.

 

[Lock&Light]

Try watching news outlets other that western ones, you will get a much better idea of what is actually happening.

I've been watching Al Jazeera for weeks now, and my impression is very similar to weltweit's.

 

[dylans]

Since when did military defeat strengthen a government?

He's not defeated yet. Military attack however strengthens many a governments hands. Patriotism is the last refuge etc etc

 

[weltweit]

Oh you mean like in Gaza?

As it happens I am pro a Palestinian state and am if anything anti Israel in most things.

/off topic

 

[Lock&Light]

He's not defeated yet. Military attack however strengthens many a governments hands. Patriotism is the last refuge etc etc

I was very impressed with your contributions to the Egyptian thread, but find myself face-palming when I read what you have to say on this one.

 

[dylans]

Why not mention Tibet?
Or Burma?
Or Zimbabwe?

This thread is about Libya.

The argument is that Western governments are intervening in Libya out of humanitarian concern. In that context then it is perfectly reasonable to point to the foreign policies of those same governments when it comes to other Arab or Muslim countries. The US crying crocodile tears for Libyan civilians wears a little thin when that same country stood by and excused Israelis criminal attacks on civilians in Gaza. 3 weeks of intense bombing of civilian targets. Hospitals, houses, schools, mosques, police stations, UN distribution centres, power stations. 1500 civilians dead. 350 children dead. Where were the tears of the US for the innocent then?

And now we are supposed to buy this bullshit that the US suddenly cares about civilian lives in Libya. What a disgrace

 

[dylans]

I was very impressed with your contributions to the Egyptian thread, but find myself face-palming when I read what you have to say on this one.

Go ahead. Being laughed at by those blinded by propaganda is nothing new to those with the courage to stand against jingoism and war

 

[binka]

The argument is that Western governments are intervening in Libya out of humanitarian concern. In that context then it is perfectly reasonable to point to the foreign policies of those same governments when it comes to other Arab or Muslim countries. The US crying crocodile tears for Libyan civilians wears a little thin when that same country stood by and excused Israelis criminal attacks on civilians in Gaza. 3 weeks of intense bombing of civilian targets. Hospitals, houses, schools, mosques, police stations, UN distribution centres, power stations. 1500 civilians dead. 350 children dead. Where were the tears of the US for the innocent then?

And now we are supposed to buy this bullshit that the US suddenly cares about civilian lives in Libya. What a disgrace

hang on are you against the military attack or just against the reasons stated for it? if the west weren't massive hypocrites would you find it more acceptable? obviously cameron, sarkozy, obama are massive cunts and will certainly have ulterior motives so does that mean the real immediate relief this will give to the people in benghazi is irrelevent?

 

[Lock&Light]

The argument is that Western governments are intervening in Libya out of humanitarian concern. In that context then it is perfectly reasonable to point to the foreign policies of those same governments when it comes to other Arab or Muslim countries. The US crying crocodile tears for Libyan civilians wears a little thin when that same country stood by and excused Israelis criminal attacks on civilians in Gaza. 3 weeks of intense bombing of civilian targets. Hospitals, houses, schools, mosques, police stations, UN distribution centres, power stations. 1500 civilians dead. 350 children dead. Where were the tears of the US for the innocent then?

And now we are supposed to buy this bullshit that the US suddenly cares about civilian lives in Libya. What a disgrace

America now has a President who has to show himself to be other than Bush. This does not mean that all the world's problems are about to be solved, but does mean it's no longer business as usual.

 

[Lock&Light]

Go ahead. Being laughed at by those blinded by propaganda is nothing new to those with the courage to stand against jingoism and war

I admire your indefatigabilty.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Go ahead. Being laughed at by those blinded by propaganda is nothing new to those with the courage to stand against jingoism and war

Typing posts out on the internet isn't really in the same league of courage as all those Libyans standing up against the Gaddafi regime.

 

[Combustible]

The argument is that Western governments are intervening in Libya out of humanitarian concern.

As has been repeatedly pointed out it is not necessary to believe that this is the case to be in favour of intervention.

He's not defeated yet. Military attack however strengthens many a governments hands. Patriotism is the last refuge etc etc

That may be the case and is one of the reasons I have reservations about western military action. However on the basis of this thread you'd be against it regardless of whether it strengthened his hand or whether he scuttled at the first sight of a cruise missile.

 

[dylans]

America now has a President who has to show himself to be other than Bush. This does not mean that all the world's problems are about to be solved, but does mean it's no longer business as usual.

Tell that the 60 civilians murdered by US bombing in Afghanistan 5 days ago. Tell that to the 26 children murdered by US drones in Pakistan on thursday. Tell that to the Palestinians who suffer Israeli air attack almost daily. Tell that to the 45 people murdered in Yemen yesterday. Tell that to the people killed in Bahrain last week. Show himself to be other than Bush.? And you think I deserve a facepalm?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

The argument is that Western governments are intervening in Libya out of humanitarian concern. In that context then it is perfectly reasonable to point to the foreign policies of those same governments when it comes to other Arab or Muslim countries. The US crying crocodile tears for Libyan civilians wears a little thin when that same country stood by and excused Israelis criminal attacks on civilians in Gaza. 3 weeks of intense bombing of civilian targets. Hospitals, houses, schools, mosques, police stations, UN distribution centres, power stations. 1500 civilians dead. 350 children dead. Where were the tears of the US for the innocent then?

And now we are supposed to buy this bullshit that the US suddenly cares about civilian lives in Libya. What a disgrace

We've had this argument before in the thread

There may or may not have been numerous occasions where the UN should have take action. These are fine to bring up to point out inconsistency or hypocrisy, but it is not an argument against the UN taking military action in Libya or anywhere else.

The arugment that the UN should have acted on X, Y, Z occasions but never and so should consequently never taken action anywhere is nonsensical.

 

[free spirit]

and a significant section of the population are rallying to Gaddafi. All the more so now the West is attacking. Which makes this a civil war and it is not the business of western world to take sides in that civil war.

we've already taken sides, the UK sold 120million euros worth of arms to gadafi in the last 6 years, out of 820 million euros arms sales from the EU in total - weapons that should never have been sold. This is just evening the odds up a bit.

If Benghazi takes Tripoli and launches a pogrom on all black Libyans and foreign workers and starts hanging Gaddafi supporters from lampposts are we to expect the West to intervene again?

that's a very big IF. Personally I think international intervention is far more likely to reduce the possibility of this happening than abandoning them to their fate, as they'd know they'd lose their international backing if they started committing atrocities themselves whereas they'd most likely have witnessed far worse atrocities being committed against them while the world stood by and let it happen, which would potentially lead to situations where widespread revenge atrocities were more likely.

The Shia of Iraq launched an uprising in Iraq as did the Kurds and the marsh Arabs. They called for Western support. By your standards that should be enough to justify the Iraq war. In which case you should come out and admit that Blair was right to invade.

if you forget about the intervening decade or so you'd potentially have a point.

By this standard you should support the UN invasion of Somalia (also launched as humanitarian intervention) After all that ended so well didn't it.?

yeah, this comparison doesn't really stack up either does it. Maybe we'd be better off focussing on the situation in hand eh.

 

[weltweit]

...
The arugment that the UN should have acted on X, Y, Z occasions but never and so should consequently never taken action anywhere is nonsensical.

Quite, well said Divisive Cotton.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

The Colonel is coming onto the stage! Live... from Tripoli

Surely one thing they really should do now is take off Libyan state tv from Nilesat satellite (based in Egypt)

 

[Weller]

those of us who opposed the Iraq war. We were right then and we are right now. Where is the democracy in Iraq? In a years time we will be asking the same question about Libya..

Who is this "we" you speak of , you may have posted some interesting stuff on some of these uprisings but just lately all this leave them to carry on regardless ideas of yours whatever is happening is grating a bit.

Just because some of us opposed the Iraq war does not mean that "we" all agree that its right to stand back on this one , its quite clear that it was not possible any longer to keep out of it and watch both him and his son carry on making gains and getting in position for a mass slaughter this differs from Iraq , Gaza and all the other places you keep on mentioning.

Dont think that you speak for everyone who was against Iraq you dont , you are correct that we were right then but some of us thinking that supporting the Lybian people with the help they themselves are calling for are also right now.

The Lybian rebels know that they were being pushed back and needed asked for outside help , something had to happen to sit back and do nothing "because its not our war" was not an option on this one you cannot compare it with Iraq at all

The rest of the world should stay out of this because of staying out of others and just watch 1000s more people die here would have been crazy

 

[Lock&Light]

Tell that the 60 civilians murdered by US bombing in Afghanistan 5 days ago. Tell that to the 26 children murdered by US drones in Pakistan on thursday. Tell that to the Palestinians who suffer Israeli air attack almost daily. Tell that to the 45 people murdered in Yemen yesterday. Tell that to the people killed in Bahrain last week. Show himself to be other than Bush.? And you think I deserve a facepalm?

It is a nonsense to think that real life changes just because a new president has been elected.

Evolution is the only way forward, but, as we know, it takes time.

 

[free spirit]

There are numerous Un resolutions against Israel, I hadn't realised that only the no fly ones were to be enforced, silly me, despite Israel using aircraft's as well as artillery and tanks to bomb civilian targets the UN has not imposed no fly zones. Why?

I'm a little unclear here, so please help me out. Are you arguing that it would be right to impose a no fly zone on Israel, but not on Libya?

I'm not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the situation between Israel and Palestine, merely pointing out that none of the resolutions so far have authorised military action, whereas this resolution about Libya does.

Two foreign countries have invaded Bahrain, surely this in itself is reason for the UN to intervene?

invaded?

and yes I think we ought to intervene in bahrain, but diplomatically not militarily.

 

[Lock&Light]

The arugment that the UN should have acted on X, Y, Z occasions but never and so should consequently never taken action anywhere is nonsensical.

Thanks for so clearly pointing out the obvious.

 

[dylans]

It is a nonsense to think that real life changes just because a new president has been elected.

I agree. It is you who wants to spin this "obama wants to show himself to be other than bush" bollocks.

 

[weltweit]

Factbox - Military assets in play in Libya crisis
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/19/uk-libya-forces-idUKTRE72I2BJ20110319?pageNumber=1

 

[free spirit]

Who is this "we" you speak of , you may have posted some interesting stuff on some of these uprisings but just lately all this leave them to carry on regardless ideas of yours whatever is happening is grating a bit.

Just because some of us opposed the Iraq war does not mean that "we" all agree that its right to stand back on this one , its quite clear that it was not possible any longer to keep out of it and watch both him and his son carry on making gains and getting in position for a mass slaughter this differs from Iraq , Gaza and all the other places you keep on mentioning.

Dont think that you speak for everyone who was against Iraq you dont , you are correct that we were right then but some of us thinking that supporting the Lybian people with the help they themselves are calling for are also right now.

The Lybian rebels know that they were being pushed back and needed asked for outside help , something had to happen to sit back and do nothing "because its not our war" was not an option on this one you cannot compare it with Iraq at all

The rest of the world should stay out of this because of staying out of others and just watch 1000s more people die here would have been crazy

exactly.