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Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

Deareg said:
This whole rebellion was meant to be about installing democracy,
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Surely the current social system in Libya is closer to David Cameron's vision of 'the big society' than this country will ever get close to ! why would he ever side against the only functional example of something similar to his 'big society' system within the world, whilst he continues to promote the idea here !?
 
Penry said:
Surely the current social system in Libya is closer to David Cameron's vision of 'the big society' than this country will ever get close to ! why would he ever side against the only functional example of something similar to his 'big society' system within the world, whilst he continues to promote the idea here !?
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Probably weren't sure which side was going to win, so decided to make sure.
 
dylans said:
...
3. It can move to directly intervene in order to institute regime change itself with the aim of engineering a change of regime to one amiable to its interests. This is the approach it is following in Libya. After initially "rehabilitating" Gaddafi over the past few years and placing its hopes in Gaddafi's son, the uprising in Benghazi has forced the US (and let's face it, the UN is nothing but a US tool) to move directly to overthrow Gaddafi while working to ensure his replacement with a new puppet regime that will ensure the flow of oil and provide a regime amiable to US regional demands
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Gaddafi and his sons ensured the flow of oil. War if anything, is likely to restrict the flow of oil.

dylans said:
It also offers the opportunity of a new stable client regime through which it can work to further redirect and undermine the continuing process of revolution in the region.
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America does actually believe in democracy. What they are saying with their mouths, is that democracy will be a good thing for the region. The old order for the region is coming apart, you either welcome the new order or you are out of step. There was nothing the USA could have done to stop the revolution in Egypt, good thing too.

dylans said:
It is the need to undermine the entire movement towards genuine self determination in the Arab world. Intervention in Libya is a step towards that.
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I don't agree. Obama does not want to be dragged into a ground war. Resolution 1973 does not permit this, in fact it explicitly rules it out. The USA would need to be there on the ground to install a puppet regime. The Libyan rebels will determine the new regime, assuming they win through with UN Allies support that is.
 
Gaddafi and his sons ensured the flow of oil. War if anything, is likely to restrict the flow of oil.
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Indeed. and if the uprising hadn't broken out in Benghazi I am sure the US would have been quite happy to continue the relationship with Gaddafi.

America does actually believe in democracy. What they are saying with their mouths, is that democracy will be a good thing for the region. The old order for the region is coming apart, you either welcome the new order or you are out of step. There was nothing the USA could have done to stop the revolution in Egypt, good thing too.
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Except in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait and Yemen etc etc.

I don't agree. Obama does not want to be dragged into a ground war. Resolution 1973 does not permit this, in fact it explicitly rules it out. The USA would need to be there on the ground to install a puppet regime. The Libyan rebels will determine the new regime, assuming they win through with UN Allies support that is.
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There are Libyan rebels and there are Libyan rebels. The US will ensure that a regime is installed that will do its bidding. Self determination for Libya doesn't come into it and I absolutely guarantee that a democratic regime will not emerge from this. More likely two nations divided East and West will be the result
 
http://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi

:eek::eek:

Source says that Gaddafi attempted suicide and doctors are trying to resuscitate him. He says he has footage and trying to pass it across.

=====

# Because they're forced of course. Can you imagine what it must be like now inside Bab al Azizia? half a minute ago

# I won't believe it until I see it. But he's taking a huge mother of a risk by traying to pass it. 2 minutes ago via web

# Source says that Gaddafi attempted suicide and doctors are trying to resuscitate him. He says he has footage and trying to pass it across.

# Hang tight, I'm trying to get more about this suicide story...

# Not yet, this is fresh. Hang tight, I'm trying to confirm 11 minutes ago

# Guys it seems it's not a joke. I'm getting reports the Gaddafi suicide attempt story may actually be credible.

# BTW, just tweeted about a rumored Gaddafi suicide attempt!
 
Deareg said:
No offence but you are not really posting anything worth responding to, it sounds more like you are just thinking random thoughts out loud, sorry if this sounds rude.
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And you, of course, have long pondered the problems that beset humanity. I scrape and bow to you.
 
Won't believe it until I see it. But he says he's taking a huge risk by even trying to send anything across.

Source says it's not video, it's still photos half a minute ago
 
dylans said:
3. It can move to directly intervene in order to institute regime change itself with the aim of engineering a change of regime to one amiable to its interests. This is the approach it is following in Libya. After initially "rehabilitating" Gaddafi over the past few years and placing its hopes in Gaddafi's son, the uprising in Benghazi has forced the US (and let's face it, the UN is nothing but a US tool) to move directly to overthrow Gaddafi while working to ensure his replacement with a new puppet regime that will ensure the flow of oil and provide a regime amiable to US regional demands

It also offers the opportunity of a new stable client regime through which it can work to further redirect and undermine the continuing process of revolution in the region. The Egypt option of rearranging the military and the remnants of the old regime to reestablish order under a new flag isn't possible in Libya where the uprising became a military uprising and where the regime revolves so much around one family and tribe. The goal is the rescue of the US empire and to do that the US has to kill the one dimension of the regional uprisings that threatens to undermine it. The goal isn't simply oil, though oil is a factor. It is the need to undermine the entire movement towards genuine self determination in the Arab world. Intervention in Libya is a step towards that.
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In an ideal world I'd have wanted the libyan people to do this by themselves, but it's become pretty clear that they're not going to be able to achieve this, so the choice isn't between letting the libyan people do it themselves and US intervention to impose a new client state. The choice now is between

option a
Allowing Gaddafi free reign to seize back control of the country probably with severe repercussions for everyone who's dared to rise up against him, and not abandoning these brave people to their fate entirely

option b
Offering those who've not already fallen back under his control a fighting chance of achieving their goal of getting rid of gaddafi, or at least staying alive and not under his rule.

Given those options, I choose option B. If you want to abandon these people to their fate in favour of geopolitical thinking, that's your choice. I put the fate of the people who've dared to rise up first, geopolitical considerations come second.
 
weltweit said:
Gaddafi and his sons ensured the flow of oil. War if anything, is likely to restrict the flow of oil.



America does actually believe in democracy. What they are saying with their mouths, is that democracy will be a good thing for the region. The old order for the region is coming apart, you either welcome the new order or you are out of step. There was nothing the USA could have done to stop the revolution in Egypt, good thing too.



I don't agree. Obama does not want to be dragged into a ground war. Resolution 1973 does not permit this, in fact it explicitly rules it out. The USA would need to be there on the ground to install a puppet regime. The Libyan rebels will determine the new regime, assuming they win through with UN Allies support that is.
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Weltweit I really worry that if you were in Libya watching Libya State tv you would be queuing up to provide him with a human shield right about now.

Meanwhile a Iyad El Baghdadi, on twitter is saying that Gaddafi attempted suicide rumours might be true and is awaiting photos... dum dum duuuuuuuuuuuum

I've got to go out. :mad:
 
dylans said:
...
There are Libyan rebels and there are Libyan rebels. The US will ensure that a regime is installed that will do its bidding. Self determination for Libya doesn't come into it and I absolutely guarantee that a democratic regime will not emerge from this. More likely two nations divided East and West will be the result
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I suggested earlier in the thread that a West Libya and an East Libya could emerge, but that depends, without Gaddafi, and assuming the rebels win through in east and west, who knows.

Are the anti Gaddafi feelings less in the West, or is it just that they are nearer Gaddafi's base that they have been successfully repressed.
 
quimcunx said:
Meanwhile a Iyad El Baghdadi, on twitter is saying that Gaddafi attempted suicide rumours might be true and is awaiting photos... dum dum duuuuuuuuuuuum
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It would be typical of the man if he proved to be unable to pull the trigger properly.
 
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
My source asked me to "stand by". Now I can't sleep. But can you imagine if it's true? It could be as big as Hitler's.

!!!!

G suicide!!!!!! news in coming the big thing since Hilter!
 
quimcunx said:
Weltweit I really worry that if you were in Libya watching Libya State tv you would be queuing up to provide him with a human shield right about now.
...
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I am touched that you worry for me :) thanks ..

When I get to watch the TV on this (at the moment it is on Jurassic Park), I watch BBC News, Al Jazeera English, France 24, CNN and Russia Today. Apart from that I get lots of input via googlenews. I am trying to spread my viewing widely but I don't have Libyan Tv, nor have I read the green book :)
 
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
I talked a lot about disinfo tonight and last night. Maybe this is another one of those stories. But let's see, the guy said to stand by...
 
quimcunx said:
Weltweit I really worry that if you were in Libya watching Libya State tv you would be queuing up to provide him with a human shield right about now:
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I think it far more likely that everyone on this thread would have risen up against gaddafi, some would now be dead, some in prison being tortured, some in hiding, most of those still free desperately hoping for outside military help, and a few preferring to make a valiant last stand without US help.

I reckon I'd either be dead, in prison being tortured, or launching slightly kamikazi attacks on the libyan army in some way. I'm pretty sure that at this stage in proceedings I'd not object to a UN sponsored military intervention to even up the odds, even if I were a bit wary about the motivations behind it and what it might lead to in the long term.
 
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi

@moshow1989 Obviously can't reveal that, he's already saying he's in great danger just talking to me
42 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Iyad El-Baghdadi
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi

@danielordas I've very skeptical myself because this is a new source I just got introduced to now. I can't vouch for him.
 
quimcunx said:
Yes. I delayed posting when I first saw the tweets. I was hoping it's some idiotic propaganda or a mistake.

For anyone who hasn't been watching this thread Mohamed Nabous set up tv channel Libya Alhurra from Benghazi. He first came onto our internets at the start of the uprising and then set up this little independent broadcasting unit from where he and others reported. His reports were in English. From what he told us he was just a techy bloke who wanted to get word out to the world. He became the face of Free Libyans for many. His wife confirmed on Alhurra that he has died.

In his first broadcast he said in his plea, ''I am not afraid to die, I am afraid to lose the battle'.


RIP Mo
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indeed. RIP :(
 
free spirit said:
I think it far more likely that everyone on this thread would have risen up against gaddafi, some would now be dead, some in prison being tortured, some in hiding, most of those still free desperately hoping for outside military help, and a few preferring to make a valiant last stand without US help.

I reckon I'd either be dead, in prison being tortured, or launching slightly kamikazi attacks on the libyan army in some way. I'm pretty sure that at this stage in proceedings I'd not object to a UN sponsored military intervention to even up the odds, even if I were a bit wary about the motivations behind it and what it might lead to in the long term.
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I'd be transfixed in front of the tv doing nothing. Much the same as now.
 
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