LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Spymaster]

A Gender Recognition Certificate changes someone's legal sex. A diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria is required however surgery is not a necessary condition of being granted one.

I'd need to read the GRA, to see exactly what it says and the rights it confers. If it says that a biological man can be a woman, I disagree with it.

If however, it bestows the right for a biological male to be treated as a women, legally and socially, and not persecuted for that, I'm right behind it.

 

[8ball]

I used to post on another forum, that also tore itself apart over this issue. Over there, the 'gender critical ' side effectively won and as a result any discussions about trans people take place wholly within that frame of reference. It's been interesting to watch how people who considered themselves 'reasonable' have become increasingly extreme and prejudiced over time without much exposure to the other side of the argument (have watched this plenty in real life too). This is one of the few places to discuss this that isn't completely dominated by those voices.

Although it wasn’t only gender critical voices that we lost on urban.

 

[Spymaster]

I used to post on another forum, that also tore itself apart over this issue. Over there, the 'gender critical ' side effectively won and as a result any discussions about trans people take place wholly within that frame of reference. It's been interesting to watch how people who considered themselves 'reasonable' have become increasingly extreme and prejudiced over time without much exposure to the other side of the argument (have watched this plenty in real life too). This is one of the few places to discuss this that isn't completely dominated by those voices.

Correct. This forum is dominated by the opposing view, because those with differing opinions have been bullied away or silenced.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Hiya. I'm not sure what Smokedout meant there.

That was their response to me saying I don't believe that biological men with full male genitalia, are women. They then say that the law disagrees with me. I'm not aware of any law that explicitly disagrees with that sentiment, so would need to be shown it to comment.

other than

Equality Act 2010 and asa consequence the statute and case law in Employment law - employment law being the area where in the 1990s the major changes were first codified
Gender Recognition act 2004
the regulations and laws that cover Passports
the regulations and laws that cover Driving licences
the regulations and laws that govern the NHS


do you wish to continue embarssing yourself Spymaster?


there is a running joke in the trans community that a GRC also ought to come with a PGDip in adminstrative law given the amount of work and therefore understanding and expertise on the topics someone who gets a GRCD has had to demonstrate ot get to that point

 

[smokedout]

Correct. This forum is dominated by the opposing view, because those with differing opinions have been bullied away or silenced.

Complete nonsense, almost all of the trans posters have left or hardly post anymore due to transphobia on this forum whilst threads discussing trans issues are frequently dominated by logic bros aggresively regurgitating gender critical propaganda they've read online somewhere.

 

[Spymaster]

Complete nonsense, almost all of the trans posters have left or hardly post anymore due to transphobia on this forum whilst threads discussing trans issues are frequently dominated by logic bros aggresively regurgitating gender critical propaganda they've read online somewhere.

Nonsense. You seem to forget that there will be people reading this who witnessed the disgusting TERF treatment that you doled out to many women on the other threads, who are no longer here as a result.

 

[8ball]

do you wish to continue embarssing yourself Spymaster?

Spymaster earlier indicated a total semantic overlap between woman and natal woman, so I don’t think there is any actual inconsistency there.

I do recall (as I just said), us losing both trans and trans-positive posters as well as GC (hate that term!) posters in previous debacle(s), so I do disagree with him that things happened as cleanly as he portrays with one side dominating completely.

 

[Rob Ray]

I left for most of a year specifically because the transphobia and refusal to even admit there was a growing moral panic on the issue got so unpleasant, and I'm not even trans. The idea that Urban was some haven for pro-trans bullying is truly some memory hole shit.

 

[kabbes]

I used to post on another forum, that also tore itself apart over this issue. Over there, the 'gender critical ' side effectively won and as a result any discussions about trans people take place wholly within that frame of reference. It's been interesting to watch how people who considered themselves 'reasonable' have become increasingly extreme and prejudiced over time without much exposure to the other side of the argument (have watched this plenty in real life too). This is one of the few places to discuss this that isn't completely dominated by those voices.

The problem is, the moment that one side “wins” by simply shouting so loudly that the other side shuts up, this doesn’t mean the other side have actually been won round. Nobody has changed their view, they’ve just learned not to voice it when those of the other side are around. So instead, they stick to the bubble chamber of their own side, where their darkest thoughts get amplified and fed back. The result is polarisation and, ultimately, things like populist backlashes.

If we truly want to change the world, that has to come through changing the way those who disagree with us make sense of the world. And that means not diving straight into telling them that they’re sinful abominations on the one hand, or hate-mongering nazis on the other.

 

[smokedout]

Nonsense. You seem to forget that there will be people reading this who witnessed the disgusting TERF treatment that you doled out to many women on the other threads, who are no longer here as a result.

You're just telling outright lies now. I seem to remember you asking me to meet you for a drink whilst all that was going on btw, so it didn't seem to bother you at the time.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I left for most of a year specifically because the transphobia and refusal to even admit there was a growing moral panic on the issue got so unpleasant, and I'm not even trans. The idea that Urban was some haven for pro-trans bullying is truly some memory hole shit.

what you have to remember is that to transphobes, acknowledging trans folx as their lived experiecne is an anthema and trans folx being able ot function in normal society gives them massive connipations incase they get trans cooties or something ...

a lot of transphobic men also have massive 'wanker;s remorse' about the topic of trans women

 

[8ball]

If we truly want to change the world, that has to come through changing the way those who disagree with us make sense of the world. And that means not diving straight into telling them that they’re sinful abominations on the one hand, or hate-mongering nazis on the other.

I almost totally agree with you, except about the first sentence I quoted, which carries the implication that it is necessarily the ‘other’ that carries all the ‘needing to change’ duties.

 

[Spymaster]

I seem to remember you asking me to meet you for a drink whilst all that was going on btw, so it didn't seem to bother you at the time.

I did indeed ask you for a drink. And that's still an open invitation, btw. I also actually met another trans poster on this thread for lunch and a discussion. At the time I was trying to understand things and straighten out my own thoughts.

 

[kabbes]

I almost totally agree with you, except about the first sentence I quoted, which carries the implication that it is necessarily the ‘other’ that carries all the ‘needing to change’ duties.

I know. I thought that after I wrote it. But, I suppose, people do start out wanting to change the world. It’s only after they have met the alternative representations of the other that they can contemplate the possibility that they actually have to change themselves.

 

[smokedout]

I did indeed ask you for a drink. And that's still an open invitation, btw. I also actually met another trans poster on this thread for lunch and a discussion. At the time I was trying to understand things and straighten out my own thoughts.

Well I'm glad I ignored you then. Trans people don't exist as a prop to help you straighten out your thoughts and given you now claim I was acting like a disgusting bully merely for trying to explain my experience of gender and correct the tidal wave of anti-trans misinformation flooding the boards I suspect it would not have been a pleasant encounter.

 

[Spymaster]

Well I'm glad I ignored you then. Trans people don't exist as a prop to help you straighten out your thoughts and given you now claim I was acting like a disgusting bully merely for trying to explain my experience of gender and correct the tidal wave of anti-trans misinformation flooding the boards I suspect it would not have been a pleasant encounter.

Well I would have behaved in a civilised fashion despite our differences. I suspect that you're right though (given your deceitful characterisation of the events of the time and my position now) and you wouldn't have been able to do the same.

 

[ddraig]

Complete nonsense, almost all of the trans posters have left or hardly post anymore due to transphobia on this forum whilst threads discussing trans issues are frequently dominated by logic bros aggresively regurgitating gender critical propaganda they've read online somewhere.

This, so much, this

 

[iona]

Out of interest, do you find the signage or terminology problematic on those occasions where you need to access services of that nature?

I think I've avoided a fair amount of that by, until recently, living somewhere where there was a regular clinic specifically for trans people where I could access stuff like contraception and health screening (one time pre-covid they were also giving out vegan chocolate brownies in the waiting room which is possibly the most Brighton thing ever).

I'm also lucky in that I never really experienced a huge amount of dysphoria in relation to that stuff. Some people do and I think attempts to reduce that distress and better include people in healthcare provision and messaging are a positive thing, and don't need to mean banning the use of the word "woman" or whatever the latest scare story is saying this week.

(Sorry Spymaster, not ignoring your reply to me but I can never actually remember the specifics of the law and my head isn't up for reading legalese right now. I reckon plenty of people would object to me calling myself a woman in certain contexts even if not having a GRC meant I was legally allowed to, though.)

 

[Rob Ray]

Tbh I think the proof is in the pudding when it comes to how the trans panic has shaken out over the last decade or so. The government has not only not extended rights for trans people since the mid 00s, it's reversed several and even blocked progress in other countries (eg. Scotland). Yet rather than defuse further worries about trans people in the public sphere, the narrative has simply been shifted so now we have classic "think of the children" stuff going after topics that didn't used to be controversial.

The gender critical set is not on the defensive against a powerful trans lobby, it's winning quite handily and indeed expanding its position.

 

[Serge Forward]

I think that one of the reasons I try to avoid these threads is that it's become such an all-defining topic which has caused former friends and comrades to fall out and become bitterly opposed to each other. This isn't helped by certain prominent GCs being utterly unpleasant and unashamedly transphobic, as well as certain trans folk and trans allies demanding that anyone who has the mildest concern (or just plain ignorance) about an issue related to trans people is a TERF and therefore a fascist.

The right wingers "ah, but can you say what a woman is!" is nothing more than a political gotcha. Spymaster and others who want to make it about "what is or isn’t a woman" are playing into that. TRAs who also make it about that are not much better.

Ultimately, we can be anything we want to be genderwise, and be treated respectfully for it, rather than treated with cruelty or hatred. Likewise, expressing doubts about someone's biological sex does not make someone a fascist hater.

 

[A380]

The problem is, the moment that one side “wins” by simply shouting so loudly that the other side shuts up, this doesn’t mean the other side have actually been won round. Nobody has changed their view, they’ve just learned not to voice it when those of the other side are around. So instead, they stick to the bubble chamber of their own side, where their darkest thoughts get amplified and fed back. The result is polarisation and, ultimately, things like populist backlashes.

If we truly want to change the world, that has to come through changing the way those who disagree with us make sense of the world. And that means not diving straight into telling them that they’re sinful abominations on the one hand, or hate-mongering nazis on the other.

You’re worse than Hitler for writing this…

 

[Rob Ray]

It's a thing where the arguments often follow the fears. Terfism is/was a creed driven by fear (men pretending to be women for nefarious/icky ends), often based on very real life traumas and lack of trust in men who, obviously, are often absolute shits. Which then looked to justify itself and found eg. rare incidents to puff up as potentially normal events, specific failures to project as systemic threats, etc. The more prickly end of the trans rights movement, similarly, has a large contingent of people who have survived and are often still trying to process serious traumas directly related to bigotries both blatant and disguised, whose reactions to perceived threats are understandably not primed to take "just asking questions" at face value.

Both of those perspectives are understandable, as is the fact that both groups find cis blokes (representing on this board the majority of posters) weighing in from a perspective of sympathy at best, absolutely infuriating when they bollock on about how we should all just remain civil.

 

[Silas Loom]

what you have to remember is that to transphobes, acknowledging trans folx as their lived experiecne is an anthema and trans folx being able ot function in normal society gives them massive connipations incase they get trans cooties or something ...

a lot of transphobic men also have massive 'wanker;s remorse' about the topic of trans women

Why? The word “folks” is gender-neutral as it is. So why do this? Whether or not your arguments are valid, what on earth is the point of neologisms that only indicate how far away you have veered from mainstream discourse and vocabulary?

 

[InArduisFouette]

Why? The word “folks” is gender-neutral as it is. So why do this? Whether or not your arguments are valid, what on earth is the point of neologisms that only indicate how far away you have veered from mainstream discourse and vocabulary?

there is debate aobut this topic, but as is suggested it;s used deliberately to be inclusive of all, also a good test to see who gets forthed into a cured pork product snowflake rage

Here’s What to Know About the Often Misunderstood Term “Folx”

The term is meant to signify gender inclusivity, but it’s actually a little more complex than that.

www.cosmopolitan.com

 

[InArduisFouette]

I think that one of the reasons I try to avoid these threads is that it's become such an all-defining topic which has caused former friends and comrades to fall out and become bitterly opposed to each other. This isn't helped by certain prominent GCs being utterly unpleasant and unashamedly transphobic, as well as certain trans folk and trans allies demanding that anyone who has the mildest concern (or just plain ignorance) about an issue related to trans people is a TERF and therefore a fascist.

The right wingers "ah, but can you say what a woman is!" is nothing more than a political gotcha. Spymaster and others who want to make it about "what is or isn’t a woman" are playing into that. TRAs who also make it about that are not much better.

Ultimately, we can be anything we want to be genderwise, and be treated respectfully for it, rather than treated with cruelty or hatred. Likewise, expressing doubts about someone's biological sex does not make someone a fascist hater.

the problem is 'mildest concern' as you euphemise it involves putting transgender women directly in the way of serious physical harm at every turn, dpesiute the evidence showing time and time again that there is no evidence of excessive levles of offending behaviour

 

[Silas Loom]

there is debate aobut this topic, but as is suggested it;s used deliberately to be inclusive of all, also a good test to see who gets forthed into a cured pork product snowflake rage

Here’s What to Know About the Often Misunderstood Term “Folx”

The term is meant to signify gender inclusivity, but it’s actually a little more complex than that.

www.cosmopolitan.com

Hmm. Well, at least it appears to have a commonly understood meaning specific to the spelling.

I am glad that in the main this topic is debated here by people too old for that sort of thing, though.

Thank you for the link.

 

[8ball]

We need the word “guyx” as well.
Will help avoid awkwardness with the waiting staff in gastropubs.

 

[Serge Forward]

the problem is 'mildest concern' as you euphemise it involves putting transgender women directly in the way of serious physical harm at every turn, dpesiute the evidence showing time and time again that there is no evidence of excessive levles of offending behaviour

That maybe so. But mild concern (not a euphemism) needs to be addressed with reason and understanding, not by calling people fascist TERFs.

 

[PTK]

the problem is 'mildest concern' as you euphemise it involves putting transgender women directly in the way of serious physical harm at every turn, dpesiute the evidence showing time and time again that there is no evidence of excessive levles of offending behaviour

.

 

[smokedout]

Tbh I think the proof is in the pudding when it comes to how the trans panic has shaken out over the last decade or so. The government has not only not extended rights for trans people since the mid 00s, it's reversed several and even blocked progress in other countries (eg. Scotland). Yet rather than defuse further worries about trans people in the public sphere, the narrative has simply been shifted so now we have classic "think of the children" stuff going after topics that didn't used to be controversial.

The gender critical set is not on the defensive against a powerful trans lobby, it's winning quite handily and indeed expanding its position.

This unfortunately. And it's not just the legislative attacks, or threats of attacks but the relentlessness of it which is beginning to have a real impact of people's mental health and sense of safety in the world - and a lot of people weren't having that great a time of it before all this started. A barely known trans influencer in the US does an Instagram tie in with a beer company and it causes a near insurrection. Dr Who hires a trans actor for a minor part and half the internet goes into meltdown and bombards the BBC with complaints. A train station displays a rainbow flag and is hit by protests and outraged articles from the commentariat about the Trans Taliban, or Queer ISIS or whatever the slur of choice happens to be at the moment.

It's not just the media noise that does the damage but the way it starts to get repeated, by friends, families, and people who are often in positions of power, not least including employers. It's not like you can just log out of twitter and not buy the Daily Mail and pretend it's not happening, it's everywhere including our own front rooms, workplaces and social circles in a lot of cases.

And should trans people ever respond, with despair, anger or frustration, then that is only used to further justify the persecution - which is how it always happens I guess, like when kids at school bullied someone until the point they had a meltdown and lost their shit and that reaction was used to justify,and intensify the bullying. It's always the victim's fault and anything the victim does to fight back will be used as evidence of this.

There was a video that caused outrage in gender critical circles a couple of years ago of a black trans protester outside the LGB Alliance conference. There is no doubt they were behaving abusively, shouting misogynist slurs about people's appearance and they were far from coherent. As well as being angry however they also seemed desperate and heart broken (and possibly quite drunk). But where does the power lie in this situation? With the black trans woman yelling in the street or inside one of the most prestigious venues in the world where a group largely consisting of journalists, lawyers and academics were holding a conference that she wasn't welcome at about what to do about people like her?

So yeah trans activism isn't perfect. Movements of marginalised people never are because a lot of people are already traumatised and damaged to begin with. Trans people, benefit claimants, refugees or other self organised groups will never achieve the slickness of middle class dominated and well funded campaigns that can afford to spit their venom with faux politeness and respectability. Trans people will never have access to the media and corridors of power in the way those opposed to their existence do. And the liberal groups and individuals which deign to speak for the marginalised will frequently sell them out as soon as things get too rocky. Sometimes shouting in the streets is all there is left and that's a sign of desperation not power.